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Stop and yield or stop and go?
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Stop and yield or stop and go?
At a stop sign you stop and after looking around you go.
33%
 33%  [ 6 ]
At a stop sign you stop and yield till all traffic is cleared.
11%
 11%  [ 2 ]
At a stop sign I get confused and look around a lot before I go.
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
I have been in an accident at a crossing with a stop sign.
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
I have never been confused nor was involved in an accident at a crossing with a stop sign.
55%
 55%  [ 10 ]
Total Votes : 18

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Leedon
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still don't see a second situation. You stop. You go when when cars won't hit you. It's what you do and it sure as hell isn't hard. Glistam posted the rule book and we copied and pasted the rule for stop signs and the single exception.

Nothing personal against you, but you're greatly overreacting to a person who broke a rule or wasn't paying attention. The point is that if he was doing what he was supposed to, then your experience wouldn't have happened. Instead of new signs, maybe we need more strict enforcement of the rules to make people more prone to follow them.

Some of this conversation with you makes me wonder if you should be driving. If you're confused on the rule and the exception, don't get in the driver's seat. Something's telling me you just don't get it.
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CrushFearSynth
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trust me, Ryrra. There are people too dumb to understand basic traffic laws. I used to date one of them. I'm surprised she didn't get me killed.
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Fredrick
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leedon wrote:
I still don't see a second situation.

Let me break my own words here of having uttered my "last words" on this matter.

If indeed in Europe the four stop intersections do not exist, then they use the stop sign in one situation only: where the roads indicate inequality to the users. If you have a stop sign in Europe, all other users on the other road go first. The driver seeing the stop sign is lowest on the pole, so to speak.

The other situation, the one we use here next to the one described above, is the four stop intersection, where actually everyone is of equal importance. But the distinction is then based on timing: whoever got to the intersection first gets to go first.

So, in the United States we have these two situations with stop signs that are different in their lay-out in that one has superior-inferior positions based on timing (who got there first goes first) and the other on position (all others on the cross road go first).

I agree with everyone that the stop sign means stop, look around, see what you need to do, and proceed when you can. It is just the underlying difference in having to decide what it is you have to do there that may cause an accident.

In my neighborhood, there are mainly four stop intersections, yet every now and then there is a two stop intersection visually not that easy to distinguish from the other intersections. When I have stopped and gone 19 times at four stop intersections, it is easy to consider the next stop sign as having the same meaning (as in, the others are going to stop too). Repetition puts our mind to sleep.

We have all declared human fallibility as part of the human condition in this thread, and repetition is one bad aspect of that fallibility. Quick way to find out is to ask someone else to quickly finish this sentence:
Ork, ork, ork, you eat soup with a ...?

You'd be surprised how many people will say fork, because of the three orks at the beginning. None of you will say it incorrectly, I know that, but try it on others and the repetition will have caused some to say 'fork.' And such a simple mistake should not be deadly. This side of human fallibility in traffic demands addressing by good planning.
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Mishlai
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see how that might create a problem. Perhaps a more judicious use of 4-way stops would be helpful. Or all 4-way stops until there is an obviously superior road. There is some benefit to consistency, and I can see what you mean about habit.

You could also outfit the troubled intersections with stoplights. A new sign is not called for.
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Fredrick
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree,

I like your option of adding a sign with: "Cross traffic does not stop!" coz its an easy fix. Especially since I believe it is the one- and two-stop sign intersections that have the deadly accidents. Yet is should then be an automatic add-on.

I added this option about what can be done to solve the underlying differences on my website. Any solution is fine with me that lead to FHWA having a consistent policy in place that makes this traffic situation clear all the time.


Last edited by Fredrick on Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Trassin
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That or just put the little "4 way stop" or "2 way stop" sign below the stop sign. A lot of intersections have these already.
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Leedon
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Ignoring the obvious typo in this quote...)

Quote:
It is just the underlying difference in having to decide what it is you have to do there that may cause an accident


... Like pulling out of your driveway, lane changing, merging onto a highway, approaching a traffic light, driving through a construction zone, moving out of the way of emergency vehicles, parking in a parking lot, speeding up or slowing down and the occational breaking? I like to call that "driving"(I made that up myself through some elegant wordsmithery one day and it caught on fast). There's a book or two(or fifty) on the subject.

But to sum up what all of those say for that particular situation(paraphrased)...

Quote:
whoever got to the intersection first gets to go first


Now is that so confusing? So someone made a mistake, on purpose or by accident. Does that actually mean that we need to change all of the signs in the US for one idiot who ignores rules or wasn't pay attention? I am seriously intrigued on why that makes any sense to you.
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Fredrick
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Leedon,

One of the downfalls of my website was obviously that it came across as annoying. By addressing the level of annoyance of that website, I think I was/am able to make it better. You were one of the writers I must thank profusely for showing me that if I put the reader of this website on the wrong foot, I will most likely not get that person back ever again to see the point I am trying to make. It was a risk I took, because I had spent enough time on creating it already. Your feed-back made it a lot better.

So thank you indeed very much for your feed-back for I consider it highly valuable.

Is this an issue that is of utmost importance? If I place it next to going to war (for the right or for the wrong reasons), I can only conclude: absolutely unimportant. But out of the 7,000 people killed each year (more or less) at intersections with a stop sign, a good number may be alive today if all the signs next to the road were immediately clear to all users in every situation. The deadly situation with stop sign occurs, according to me, mainly when one road does, and the other intersecting road doesn't have stop signs.

We can argue if a good number means just a single driver's life saved or if it means 1,000 lives would be saved. But just imagine that that single life saved was yours, when the sign next to the road gave that other stupid driver the correct information that can be construed to mean one thing only yield to all users and who then did not pull onto the road you were driving on, going 55 miles an hour.

The difference between both intersections that have stop signs is very specific: the other has always the privilege, or the others that came first have the privilege. That's all.

Thank you for your very valuable contributions.


Last edited by Fredrick on Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:36 am; edited 2 times in total
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Mishlai
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In his neighborhood example I can see it. You go through 10 or so 4-way stops and then come to one where the other traffic doesn't have to stop - but it looks the same (minus 2 stop signs of course). Someone could pretty easily have fallen into an auto-pilot routine and create an accident.

It's no excuse of course, but it's not like we don't accomodate people in other ways. A change to the traffic control devices in his locale may be warranted.

Similarly we put up guard rails, and bumps to wake people up before an intersection or curve, and flashing lights that yell "Hey dumbass, there's a stop sign ahead" and so on. All of this is essentially to account for repeat stupidity - a pattern of driver failure in certain circumstances.

If the local conditions require some special (or just different) measures then I support that. I just don't think that there's a fundamental problem with stop signs. The premise of the website is silly. Sorry, it just is. You need to petition your local government to address the problem.

I hear that localparty.org deals primarily with local issues, you may wish to check them out Fredrick.

; )
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Fredrick
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mishlai wrote:

I hear that localparty.org deals primarily with local issues, you may wish to check them out Fredrick.

; )


Hmm, what a good idea. Seems indeed that there is a pattern here. Next to expecting people to play their roles and make mistakes, the overall system itself may contain mistakes too. Some that are beneficial to some, some that may be lethal to others.

P.S. I did work on reworking the site and geared it more towards getting rid of the confusion per traffic situation, and having the FHWA collect the specific data (they already collect data on accidents at stop sign intersections, but they don't distinguish the data for 2 and 4-stop intersections).

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Leedon
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I just wanted to see if you'd keep posting if I typed up BS.
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Fredrick
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have a question, I will reply. I may not have the answer, but if I answer the way I see fit, you may find your own way that fits (because you realized you didn't like my answer). So BS and I'll reply. Sooner or later someone or something will get old.
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Mishlai
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's sooner. We're done here ; )
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Ryrra
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I was driving home I was looking for 4-way sign on stop signs on my way home. What I noticed was that here they have signs that say "all way" If you don't see that then the other road does not have to stop. The signs you want already exist and in some form or another. I is just a matter of using them. Both by putting them or leaving them off of stop signs and insuring that people follow the posted signs.
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Fredrick
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ryrra: I agree if it is always done this way. Right now, we cannot know for certain what the sign means when seeing just the stop sign. Next to the additional 'all way' there is the additional '2 way' for approaching roads with right of way as well, leaving uncertainty when there is just the stop sign.

Mishlai: I Agree, we've gnawed on this bone long enough.

Let's finish this thread off. Thank you all for great replies and information.

Mongo edit: Locked at the Original Poster's (OPs) indirect request.
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Leedon
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just posting to be silly and get the last word in.

Edited by Glistam: When a thread is locked in the General section we don't play posting games in it. All extra posts have been deleted.
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