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Discussion of the week (4/18/2005) - Parenting
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Glistam
I plead the Third
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2005 11:51 pm    Post subject: Discussion of the week (4/18/2005) - Parenting Reply with quote

Click to view this week's picture

"C" is for "Crap," which is what I feel this is. I also don't think these predictions are too far off. But lets discuss it.

*Edited to insert a link to view the picture this week, instead of direct linking it, so it wouldn't keep making me have to scroll from side to side.
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Mongolio
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The last frame is my exact opinion.

I am so $@!#ing tired of parents not being responsible for their children's crap.  It's always someone else's responsibility.  

It goes deeper than that, though.  All those kids that grew up before most of us did have swapped their attitudes over to this "it's someone else's fault".  That's why you hear about silly lawsuits.  I read one on Friday about a lady suing a store that has an outdoor garden center (like Wally-World).  Aparently, a bird flew in and attacked her.  She sued because they don't take precautions to prevent that exact scenario.  ...  ...  WTF???  What part of "Wild" didn't you understand in "Wild Animals"???

Meh.  

I need to go spit now.
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Core meltdown (commonly known as a meltdown) is an accident scenario in nuclear reactors, and is one of the possible modes of failure for light water reactors, during which the reactor pile turns into a pile of reactor.
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Madhatte
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woe is it to you all that I will be gone from all internettery this entire week due to a class field trip.  Suffice it to say, the beatings will continue upon my return.
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Mongolio
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everyone nail down your furniture!  Gravity is about to change!
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Core meltdown (commonly known as a meltdown) is an accident scenario in nuclear reactors, and is one of the possible modes of failure for light water reactors, during which the reactor pile turns into a pile of reactor.
---RationalWiki

If Jesus had existed, his DNA would have been 99% similar to that of a chimpanzee. Or you. You're 99% Jesus.
-- RationalWiki
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Immyls
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i read an article about this phenomon just recently.  it was talking about how american society has changed from the post ww2, the buck stops here, mentality, where the head guy took responcibility(even kennedy took the hit for the bay of pigs invasion), to a nambey pamby, who else can i blame society.  needless to say, i'm doing my best to beat my children into the former type of society(my favorite saying right now is 'i don't care who's fault it is, get it done').  so far, i'm getting mixed results.  my son has hit the age where he has figured out that he can blame other people.  but i'm not worried about it in the long run.
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Glistam
I plead the Third
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My sons watched some episodes of Star Wars: Clone Wars on Cartoon Network. Now they run around having light saber duels with each other. They even go so far as to poke my wife and I with their weapons when they run by. Whose fault is that? Mine. If some kid loses an eye because of my kids' excessive mock sword poking - my fault because I haven't done my part to prevent them from engaging in wanton eye destruction.

People refuse to take the blame for their actions anymore. Or, in this case, their lack of action. You see it everywhere, this thing with Sesame Street is only the more recent, high profile example. And you can't really blame the program for their decision either. In a society where people are sueing McDonalds for making them fat, and where people are sueing the tobacco industry for selling them cancer-causing cigarettes with warning labels clearly printed on them I can sympathyze with Sesame Street trying to do its part to not become the next target.

I have no doubt that within the next 10 years we will see lwsuits filed against the program because someone's precious 12 year old is overweight and loves eating cookies. They are going to point that finger right at the blue monster who for decades spouted cookie-gorging propaganda.

On the other hand though, I have no respect for Sesame Street because they have changed so much. Oscar the Grouch is no longer a jerk, he's just a little irratible. Elmo has ╝ of the damn show dedicated to him. There are long segments (Monster clubhouse, Where's Ernie) where they ignore the "story" of that episode and instead focus on the "interaction" that is prevalent in today's children's shows.

This "interaction" bothers me a lot too. Neither of my kids ever bought it, and I don't blame them. I'd feel silly too trying to talk back to the TV when it's obvious that what I say will have no bearing whatsoever on whereever it is Big Bird want's to look for Ernie, or whether or not Steve finds that clue. Sure, in Blues Clues the interaction fits within the context of the show. But not in Sesame Street. It doesn't belong there, no matter how much they try and put it there.

I think I lost where I was going with all this. Suffice it to say, while I can understand the various reasons why the change is taking place, I certainly don't agree with it. Parents need to realize just who, ultimately, has the final say in how their kids turn out. It isn't the Cookie Monster, or their grade school teacher using red ink on their papers. They need to look at each other and take responsibility for their inaction.
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Immyls
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well said.  i agree.  unfortunatly, this is a litiginous society, and the majority of its participants are more interested in avoiding blame than fixing the problems...  i know this is a discussion forum, but does anyone have any ideas for what we as a society can do to turn this trend around?  i think it is all linked in to the concept that the world is too complex to be good at everything.  think about it for a minute, before you laugh.  in our grandparents youth, any respectable man could probably fix a hole in his roof, repair small plumbing problems, ride a horse, grow food(in a pinch), or at least hunt some down.  today, if your sink leaks, you call a plumber.  if your roof leaks, you call a roofer.  if you are hungry, you get some fast food.  somewhere the concept came out that we should all specialize in small areas, and with it came the idea that it was the plumbers fault that the sink leaks, and it was only a small jump from there to 'nothing could possibly be my fault'.  shortly followed by 'i'm fat because of emotional damage that my parents caused when i was small.'  to which, i just have to say, 'no, you are fat because you eat to much and don't exercise enough.  get over your childhood and try to do something with your life.'  ok.  done ranting now.


oh, and if you are fat, and offended by my earlier statements, the devil made me do it...   Smile
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Mongolio
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm fat....  That's because I'm lazy.  

I'm lazy because:  "Hard work pays off down the road; laziness pays off right now."

This is my attitude because ... ... ... just because, dammit.  It's my attitude.  It has been influenced by innumerable factors (environment, societal, whatever).  

Overall though, it's my responsibility.  

'Nuff said.

[Edited my silly BBCode error]
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Core meltdown (commonly known as a meltdown) is an accident scenario in nuclear reactors, and is one of the possible modes of failure for light water reactors, during which the reactor pile turns into a pile of reactor.
---RationalWiki

If Jesus had existed, his DNA would have been 99% similar to that of a chimpanzee. Or you. You're 99% Jesus.
-- RationalWiki


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SPyder
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

I have been trying to beat this way of thinking into my 10 yr old daughter for quite some time. I refuse to give up but she is thick header (once again My fault). My wife and I have taught our children to think for themselves and to not 'bend' to someone else's way of thinking just because it is the popular way of thinking. Now I am trying to get her to understand that for every one of her actions there is going to be some responsiblity on her part. But honestly I really dont expect her to feel this way until she is much older. I, myself, didn't learn this until I was in my 20's. That is when I see myself as growing up into adulthood. The most a parent can do is get an idea locked in a kids brain. It takes maturity for them to use those idea's and sometimes that is long in coming.
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Immyls
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i got the idea pretty young(13 or 14).  i just didn't bother to curtail my actions accordingly until much later(i got lots of lumps for it too.)
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Vy
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So when do you let them take responsibility for their own actions?

You set a ground floor, construct the building and walk away, I dont think so, parenting is an ongoing process.
Do you let your child drink when they are underage, expectations say a lot about how they develope, do you set limitless restrictions and it all backfires because they rebel.

Parents have so many enemies... environment, peers, jobs, and just being human... no man/woman is perfect.  "Can  you blame parents of a murderer by his actions" -maybe im thinking too far ahead, forgive me for jumping off this cliff!!!!
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Immyls
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you hold them responsible as soon as they are reasonably able to understand the consequences of their actions.  this means that you hold the two year old responsible to the tune of about two minutes, because any punishment longer than that will only cause the child to forget what they are being punished for.  however, it means that my seven year old can be responsible enough to do his chores without prompting, to not behaive attrociously to his sister, etc.  if he violates these standards of behaivior, he knows that he will be punished accordingly.  so he only violates them when he thinks that the violation is worth the cost.  hence, we teach him the rules that govern our society.  children are always responsible for their actions.  it is our job as parents to make them aware of this, and not to sheild them from it.  by shielding them, we make them think that someone else is eventually going to pick up after them, and they never truly grow up.  in the case of adolesents who kill, yes, they are responcible.  their parents have failed, but that doesn't shift the blame off of the child who kills.  if it does, then any action can be excused once, because 'no one told me it was wrong'.  and if we operate on that premise, there will be no society.
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SPyder
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 7:31 am    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

I was not saying that the child who kills should not be held responsible. I completely agree that, unless there is something mentally wrong with the kid, most children understand right from wrong. What I was saying is maybe we should hold parents responsible, not so much for poor parenting in a general way, but for lack of caring in a major way. If I know my kid is going out to get drunk and I still give them my car, should I be held responsible when he runs over the neighborhood kids when they are trick or treating? I think yes. I know yes if I had provided the alchohol in the first place. As to the question on should I allow my teen to drink I have to say that it depends. One of the mothers of my childhood friends allowed us to get away with alot in her house. Rules were simple. No one drives if they are 'up to know good'. If you were going to be alone in a room with a girl 'be safe dummie' (if you didnt have any protection some would be provided). Never say exactly what you were 'up to' in either situation so she could deny it (to herself more than anything)

Do I now approve of this type of parenting? I don't know. But I look back and try to see how many of my friends died of alcohol or drug related things and I don't have a one. The only teenage pregnancy in my group of friends (which was quite large) was mine and my girlfriend. And that was because  my parents were over protective so we did it when and where we could. Parenting is hard.  Laughing
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Immyls
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i have to disagree with part of your statment there spyder.  kids don't know right from wrong.  thats why we as parents have to hold them responsible for their actions.  if we don't, they don't know that what they do is wrong.  The largest job of any parent is to instill a moral code into thier children.  by this, i don't mean that kids need to be able to quote the ten commandments or anything like that(hell, i doubt i could do that).  what i mean is that they need to understand, at a visceral level, the consequences of their actions.  morals aren't standards of right and wrong, they are a list of sanctions for actions that society finds unacceptable.  this is why we punish a child.  without parental punishment, the first time the child is punished is when he or she reaches adulthood and the law steps in.

as for your teen age years, mine were similar.  though my parents weren't as up front with the contraception advice.  but by allowing your children to live in your own home, you manage to keep a reign in on the extremes of behaivior(ie, to keep a tight rope, let out some slack).

in a side note, in the beggining of Starship Troopers(by robert heinlien), there is a discussion of behaivior correction in that society.  if a juvinile commits a crime worthy of punishment, not only do they recieve the punishment(lashes in the context of the book), but their parent does as well.  where as i see our societys impact on parents of miscreant children to be a bit light, i think that this might be going a bit overboard.  any suggestions for a nice middle road?
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SPyder
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 8:05 am    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

You misunderstood me on that point we disagree on. What I meant by not knowing right from wrong was that a 5 year old may not understand that if he pulls the trigger to daddies gun he could kill someone. Therefore he doesnt understand that it would be wrong to point that gun at he buddy and 'shoot' him like they do in the cowboy movies he watches. Another 5 year old may understand the results of shooting someone clearly and may also decide to do it anyway. I know that the last two examples are extreme but it could happen.
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Immyls
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

that leads into negligence issues on the part of the parent.  personally, i think that children should be taught gun safety at a young age, and not allowed near firearms except under controled conditions until they have proven that they follow them.  which is why 1) i will have a gun locker with a combo that my children don't know should i ever own a firearm(not a key, those can be found). and 2) my children will demostrate responsible gun use with a pump action BB gun before they are allowed to own their own gun, and 3) even when they own their own gun, they will only be allowed to use it in controled situations until they are signifigantly older than they are now(16 with good gun safety education is reasonable age to allow a child some liberty with a firearm, depending on the child.  six is not.)

however, to get back on the parenting topic, yes, a five year old may not understand the consequences of his actions.  but the parent shouldn't leave a five year old so unsupervised as to allow them to get a hold of firearms in any case.  in the event that they do, yes, the child should have it impressed upon them the consequenses of their actions(not punishment in this case, but education), and well, the parent shouldn't be allowed to parent.  but that doesn't work so well in the society that we have.  actually, i think that parenting(as in raising children, not having them) should be much more closely monitered than it is.  unfortuantly, there is no real way to be a good parent without having kids and working at it.  (i was a terrible dad until i got it figured out, took me about 2 years).
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SPyder
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Immyls wrote:
however, to get back on the parenting topic, yes, a five year old may not understand the consequences of his actions. ábut the parent shouldn't leave a five year old so unsupervised as to allow them to get a hold of firearms in any case.


That was my point in my first thread. There is a certain amount of responsibility that lies on the parent therefore a parent should also be punished if they were negligent. If the kid had to break into a gun safe to get the gun then the parent did what he could to stop the kid. If the gun is sitting on the trailer wall and the ammo is directly below it....well they proved themselves to be stupid and should be removed from the gene pool.
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Immyls
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i agree.  preferably before they remove someone else.  or at the very least, they should have their children raised by someone with some sence of responsibility.  (though, again, that doesn't work in this society)
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to my excellent guidance, Zander (3yr old) choose to watch Empire Strikes Back over Toy Story 3 and Happy Feet yesterday.

That's right, other Parents, a new standard has been set!
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Mongolio
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My wife pissed me the fuck off yesterday.

I'm not a nonvocal atheist. I let my opinion known to anyone that cares to hear it. My wife is a theist, but I am respectful of her beliefs. Over the last several months, I've been talking to her about it and she says she doesn't understand it. I tell her I don't understand believing in fairy tales. Impasse.

The trick is the kids. None of them are biologically mine. One is her nephew that we are nearing adoption. It's been a sore subject for that time. I am trying to be tactful and get us both to broach the subject with the kids.

Yesterday while on the way to church with the kids and I'm (obviously) absent, she very briefly tells them that I don't believe in gods. She thinks she's done an awesome thing for me and that all should be good. My first thought was to scream at her....

Besides having a good laugh at me with the kids about it, that is probably the worst way to tell the kids. Not only am I not there to talk to them about it, but she does it ON THE FREAKING WAY TO CHURCH!!!! I was/am livid about it. Then she tells her bio kids not to tell the nephew (which is 6) about it as he's too young. WTF??? He's not too young to get religion, but he's too young to get non-religion???

I've never been so mad at my wife before. She always tells me to interact more with the kids, but then she does this shit that makes me feel like I'm a parent for things she's comfortable with, but not the stuff she isn't. She is treating me like a second class parent and it fucking sucks. I just don't know what to do anymore.
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Core meltdown (commonly known as a meltdown) is an accident scenario in nuclear reactors, and is one of the possible modes of failure for light water reactors, during which the reactor pile turns into a pile of reactor.
---RationalWiki

If Jesus had existed, his DNA would have been 99% similar to that of a chimpanzee. Or you. You're 99% Jesus.
-- RationalWiki
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