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Stop and yield or stop and go?
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Stop and yield or stop and go?
At a stop sign you stop and after looking around you go.
33%
 33%  [ 6 ]
At a stop sign you stop and yield till all traffic is cleared.
11%
 11%  [ 2 ]
At a stop sign I get confused and look around a lot before I go.
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
I have been in an accident at a crossing with a stop sign.
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
I have never been confused nor was involved in an accident at a crossing with a stop sign.
55%
 55%  [ 10 ]
Total Votes : 18

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Fredrick
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:30 am    Post subject: Stop and yield or stop and go? Reply with quote

Will you all please take this test, and while doing it, check out the effectiveness of this website. I would love to get feed-back, especially the kind that tells me why it isn't working (but don't make up fake reasons).



http://www.pentapublishing.com/stopandgo/stopgo.html




Thank you
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Mongolio
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That site is fuggin annoying. Ask a question and then spin your answer to fit it's purposes. Pretty much just like news agencies and politicians.
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CrushFearSynth
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think your poll question needs to be more specific. You stop at a stop sign and wait until it is your turn to go. Yielding is technically a different rule, with yielding you only have to stop if there is traffic in the lane you need to merge to, which has the right of way. You should always look around no matter what.
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Immyls
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, for the poll here, there wasn't really an option that applied to me. i ride a motorcycle, and try to avoid coming to a complete stop if possible, as it causes one to put one's foot down, thereby stalling the ride, and forcing one to start again. (poor explaination, i know, but the words aren't coming well at the moment.) however, the flip side of that is that i am much more concerned about cars, and more paranoid about where they are than i ever was when driving a car. hence, if i have a good line of sight and can see that there is no oncoming traffic, i might well just slow a bit, and then roll through the stop. however, if there are cars in the oppisite direction, i usually fail safe and let them go first, as they out mass me conciderably(my bike is only 300# or so.).

as for your site, it worked in the technical sence, but i'm somewhat opposed to removing all ambiguity in the world. if you can't figure out what a sign means, or if there is oncoming traffic, perhaps the human species is better off without you(not that you should be euthanized or anything, but just that i don't think that we need to defend people from their own stupid.). if we make everything as safe as possible, there will be no room left for freedom. hell, i know that riding my bike is more risky than a car, but i prefer it, both for economic reasons(it gets 50+ miles to the gallon), and asthetic ones(i like to ride it). i don't want to have to sign a waiver saying that i accept the responsibility for riding my bike. i think it is implicit in my decision to ride.

excess regulation, regardless of the intended purpose, tends to lead to less freedom. i like my freedom.

hope that this wasn't too rantish for your purposes.
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Mishlai
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the main concern of the site is too petty. This is essentially road-sign semantics, and I think everyone gets that after the stop it has to be safe for you to go.

4-way stop signs should declare that, and if an intersection is bad you might even include a "other traffic does not have a stop sign" warning or something of that nature.

I couldn't be prodded to care about this.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Incidentally, if you want to see a dangerious intersection, check out 5-points in jacksonville. 5 road-directions come to 1 intersection. 2 of them do not have stop signs (same road). 3 of them do. Various turns are possible, and there's a center statue which you should always be to the right of, but this isn't observed by newcomers.

If not for that intersection I could choose the "I've never been confused" option. That's a damn confusing one.
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CrushFearSynth
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think city planners should also take into account what a driver will expect in addition to what they should know, based on common driving laws.
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Leedon
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope this is constructive.

Yielding is for yield signs and stopping is for stop signs. That site just confuses people on terms of driving, as stated above. While I don't specifically have a book with me, I believe that the ones that DMVs give out have specific definitions. While you do infact "yield" at a stop sign, "yield" as a driving term specifically means that you don't have to stop completely unless there is oncoming traffic to deal with.

If you want to educate someone, using two definitions of the same word to make a point when only one of them specifically applies is going to make an individual who knows think less of the person who made the site and blow it off.*points at all of the above posters and himself*

I seriously dislike the page with the pictures of the stop signs. This is for multiple reasons.

For one, two of the signs are in different countries. You know that they're both stop signs, there's no confusion except the extra information on one of then that a brief glance for other octagon signs would clear things up. I don't think talking about stop signs in the US and showing signs in other countries and saying they're confusing proves anything. Also confusing? Why someone was dumb enough to put those on a website to specifically confuse people. It doesn't prove a point other than a lot of people aren't bilingual. Amazingly, you actually prove the opposite point since people know that they're stop signs and how amazingly universal the symbol is.

The one that's written on the road... At first glance, it's becomes obvious that city workers can't spell. That looks like something out of a parking lot. There's no sign. I'm now more confused at why a non-existant sign is part of the discussion.

The "all way" signs are there for a reason. Sometimes, you have places like the above mentioned Five Points and all of the roads have stop signs or some three way stops, which are more common. One could argue, why don't they say "Five Way" or why don't "Four Way" signs say "All Way", but I think it has to do with no one caring.

Another sign there has a second sign on a construction barrel. Traffic changes when construction is in progress. Construction signs override the normal signs. I don't see why it's confusing, they now have all four ways stopping at that intersection while they're working instead of two of the approaches being able to drive through. Technically, they should have tarped the extra sign when they set out the new one. That's your tax dollars at work.

The page with the stop signs with the yield signs on them is more confusing. The one that looks like a yield sign is going to cause more accidents then the ones we have now because of just that. The problem is that this site is making an effort to make a solution that won't stop a problem. Using these signs shown makes me say, "is this a stop, or is this a yield?"

Quote:
If you agree that no traffic sign on American roads should be construed to mean two different things, there is something you can do. If you are not convinced yet look at this collection of add-ons to explain away the confusion a single stop sign creates


That's not the problem. It means what it means. You even stated the problem on the same page as the above quote.

Quote:
The situation can therefore be deadly in two ways: 1) when a driver ignores the stop sign and speeds in front of the other already fast driving traffic or 2) when a driver does stop but fails to yield to the high speed drivers not realizing the others don't have a stop sign; seen in the distance cars sometimes appear to be slowing down when in reality they do not.


Changing the sign won't stop the problem. It doesn't work because of people, not the signs.

Edit: The comparing us to Britain is good. Similar country in a lot of ways and if you do the proportionals(which you did) than you can prove there's a problem. I recomend making a site about fixing people, that's what's broken here. Cell phones are, in my opinion, the most dangerous things on the road today.
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Resheph
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I come to a complete stop at stop signs 90% of the time. A girl I was seeing when I was 16 or 17 said to me "Wow...you're like....the only person I know who actually stops at stop signs"....needless to say she was a retard and had many accidents/tickets. Sometimes I don't come to a complete stop though, even though I know I should. But these are usually "Y" intersections where you can see if theres anyone coming within 1/4 mile before you're even at the stop sign.
Taking off from a stop is another topic.....I've left my mark at more then a few intersections..... Twisted Evil
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Izane Bricks
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totally agree with Leedon. But Britan may not be as good of a comparison. What is the size of Britain compared to the US? How many more people dive in Britain as compared to us? I think a statistical analysis of percentages would be more usefull than numbers. I'd also like to see more math.

The site is insulting to the people who know the rules of the road. And what's the deal with the yield sign with stop written on it?
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Mongolio
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mishlai wrote:
Incidentally, if you want to see a dangerious intersection, check out 5-points in jacksonville. 5 road-directions come to 1 intersection. 2 of them do not have stop signs (same road). 3 of them do. Various turns are possible, and there's a center statue which you should always be to the right of, but this isn't observed by newcomers.

If not for that intersection I could choose the "I've never been confused" option. That's a damn confusing one.


Jacksonville has one of the top ten worst (read: dangerous in terms of deaths per year) traffic systems in the US. Jacksonville AR, that is.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm referencing Jacksonville, FL
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Mongolio
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know. Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrushFearSynth wrote:
I think your poll question needs to be more specific. You stop at a stop sign and wait until it is your turn to go. Yielding is technically a different rule, with yielding you only have to stop if there is traffic in the lane you need to merge to, which has the right of way. You should always look around no matter what.


Exactly. The options are misleading. I said stop, look, and go because I'm not one of those ninnies that sits around waiting for someone who's waiting for me because I have the right of way. How about an option that says: At a stop site I obey the appropriate laws and customs of the road.

On the subject of traffic--and off the subject of that stupid site--I feel like bitching a little, so I will. Both on the way home and on the way to work I have to deal with poorly considered left turn signals. There is not only a green left turn light (which is operated exclusively by a sensor); there is also a corresponding red left turn signal. Almost every day I have to sit through two cycles of the light during which there are long green-straight/red-left-turn stretches with no traffic in either direction. I don't need a red left turn signal. I know that if I have a green light but not a green arrow I have to yield to opposing traffic. If the city is worried that I'll forget, a sign that says "LEFT TURN YIELD ON GREEN" will suffice to remind me. I hate having my time wasted by incompetency. I really hate having my time wasted twice a day by the same incompetency. The situations are few and far between that justify a red left turn signal (i.e. a sharp bend or steep hill immediately at the intersection which reduces visibility of imminently approaching opposing traffic or a very high speed limit, etc.) and when that type of signal is used there ought to be a timer which keeps us poor suckers from wasting our time through two cycles with no traffic instead of just one. /bloody gash.
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Fredrick
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you all so much already. But please DON'T STOP giving me more feed-back here (or each other), since it is helping me tremendously in making this site better.

From your words it became very obvious to me that I needed a visual of the two kinds of intersection on which stop signs are used. Especially since each kind of behavior contains some kind of 'go' (either going before the others are totally annoyed by your slow behavior or going after all others have passed the intersection). So, yes, Leedon, there is confusion about the wording, but the wording does portray the opposite actions expected from drivers at stop signs; go right away when you think you can, or go only after everyone has passed.



So, I added this graphic (which was changed later once more into the one seen here). The second thing I needed to do is get rid of what annoys clearly all of you: the round-about I am giving you before you get anywhere. I need to be up-front and clear, right from the start, except for the introduction page that is. And clean up the page with the foreign signage. Point well-taken, Leedon, it is indeed not a place to be funny (okay, twas not even funny).

Yet despite your complains about the poll, I think it is working really well: either the option stop-and-go was chosen or the option that there was no confusion at all. Only one person chose the stop and yield option. These answers gave me a clear indication that stop signs are considered non-confusing. Yet one in six deadly accidents happen at crossings with stop signs. Thank you, Mishlai, for coming up with the other kind of stop-sign intersections that are indeed most confusing (and the big question here: are they the most deadly?).

In Britain and all over Europe, the stop signs mean one thing only: stop and yield. You cannot move an inch with your car if you can merely see another car (or bicyclist or pedestrian) on the road you're crossing. Stop and yield, that's what the stop sign implies. Only with the most care are you supposed to enter the crossing when it is absolutely safe to do so. Not surprisingly, there is little use of stop signs in Europe (maybe not even 5% of the use we have here), and only found in hazardous situations of small and hardly ever used roads intersecting with a bigger road that is used more often. It makes sense there to not have traffic on the main road stop, while giving a firm warning to the few cars coming from the small roads. In Europe, a stop sign is like exiting a drive way; you can only enter the road when all other traffic has passed.

Resheph informing us about a girl who said "Wow...you're like....the only person I know who actually stops at stop signs" is the point in case. When it is time to yield because the other drivers don't have a stop sign, but you think a stop sign is one where the others at least slow down, you may then drive into fast-moving traffic surprised to see you getting on the road. You may get killed, or you may kill the other person this way. But the FHWA does not collect information regarding crashes and fatalities for all-way stops vs. 2-way stops, and they can therefore not know (nor we) if one of the two crossings is more dangerous than the other and will therefore not take action to prevent what may be preventable deaths. If you can distinguish a sign indicating 'stop and yield' from a sign indicating 'stop and go whenever you think you can' then you will know exactly what to do in advance.

Please, continue your feed-back, and thank you for great feed-back so far. You are giving me vital information that may save a good number of people's lives when we can replace lousy planning with good planning. Immyls, I like my freedom too, but the emphasis is not on excessive regulation, but on bad regulation. The stop sign is a good sign, but it is used in two different situations. And that can be deadly.


Last edited by Fredrick on Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Leedon
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
there is confusion about the wording, but the wording does portray the opposite actions expected from drivers at stop signs; go right away, or go when everyone has passed.


You cannot stop and yield. You can stop to yield at a yield sign. You can stop and wait at a stop sign. In the context of driving, you cannot do both. If you want to open a dictionary, then waiting for cars to pass is "yielding" but we don't use a dictionary to drive, we use the DMV's manual.

The confusion is that you're double talking the meaning to meet your own ends and defeating yourself. You stop at stop signs and yield at yield signs. While yield signs may cause you to stop, it's not a stop sign because you don't necessarily have to. Stop signs make you stop(period) and then go when traffic permits.

The only confusion is the confusion that you bring into it on the site. That whole "yield" thing needs to go, it's something completely different in the context of driving. You're actually teaching against what's taught and what works.

Now, before you argue, "if it works, then how come so many... blah, blah, blah" The problem isn't the sign, it's the people ignoring them. Changing a sign is going to make them ignore a different sign AND take us away from the global convention.

Quote:
In Britain and all over Europe, the stop signs mean one thing only: stop and yield. You cannot move an inch with your car if you can merely see another car (or bicyclist or pedestrain). Stop and yield, that's what the stop sign implies. Only with the most care are you supposed to enter the crossing when it is absolutely safe to do so. Not surprisingly, there is little use of stop signs in Europe (maybe not even 5% of the use we have here).


While I haven't been to Britain, or even half of Europe, I'm going to have to(excuse my language) call "bullshit" on Spain, Italy, Greece, and Turkey not using stop signs all that often, and I'm sure all of the other east coast squids here will agree with me. Unless you cite specific, official proof, I'm going to just shake my head because about 30+% of us on this board have been to Europe. I'm also going to mention that talking about somewhere else isn't going to solve problems here when the site compares our accidents to Britain's and then you say that they hardly(relatively) use any stop signs. That makes the statistics hardly relative, too.

I see no difference between either of those pictures you just posted. You always do the following...

1. Come to a stop at the stop sign.
2. Make sure the traffic is clear.
3. Go when you have the right of way or the traffic is clear enough to cross/turn.

Before you argue step three, it is not confusing. Either there's cars coming, or there's not or it's your turn or it's not. The closest thing to being wierd is two cars to a stop sign at once, but it's not. The person turning right goes first. If you're turning right, keep an eye on the other car and turn right, the other car should follow suit.

To bring up one last point, you've defeated your purpose in this statement.
Quote:
Resheph informing us about a girl who said "Wow...you're like....the only person I know who actually stops at stop signs" is the point in case. When it is time to yield because the other drivers don't have a stop sign, but you think a stop sign is one where the others at least slow down, you may then drive into fast-moving traffic surprised to see you getting on the road. But the FHWA does not collect information regarding crashes and fatalities for all-way stops vs. 2-way stops, and they can therefore not know (nor we) if one of the two crossings is more dangerous than the other and will therefore not take action to prevent what may be preventable deaths.


You used your example :
Quote:
girl who said "Wow...you're like....the only person I know who actually stops at stop signs"

... to prove a point.

Now, let's look at this. There's a person who obviously doesn't stop at stop signs. I'm not sure how this proves your point. It's not that she doesn't know what the sign means, as a matter of fact, she wouldn't have said anything if she didn't know what it means. She generally ignores the signs. The question I pose to you is, "How is changing the sign going to make her pay attention to it?" If she doesn't care, she doesn't care, it's just going to be something new to ignore.

It's in my opinion that you're heading the wrong direction to fix things. If I skip a step in a set of instructions to assemble something, you don't change the instructions, you change me to acknowledge them. Why not use your site to educate people on why they shouldn't ignore stop signs? Why not do something to have your statistics pointed out in driver's ed classes? Why not get the DMV to come out with a short publication on teaching your children to drive? There's so many ways to do this that may be useful, which is the one thing this site isn't.

-C
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ashlad
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you're saying there should be two different kinds of sstop sign...

How about just inventing a sign called "yield", that way you don't have to stop when the way is clear.

I didn't pay enough attention to realize you'd created the site yourself when I called it stupid. My bad. It wasn't that stupid. It was only a little stupid. Keep plugging away at it.

Questions, oh stop sign guru:

What about 3-way stop signs?

Is it true that stop signs in parking lots have no legal bearing in court for determining who's at fault in parking lot accidents?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It can be used in more than two. Here's the thing. A sign is never the whole story. You have to take in the context of the intersection, the roads that connect to it, the cars in play and their drivers. What if you are turning right and you have your own lane? Now your sign is Stop and Go for turning right but Stop and Yield for turning left or crossing. If there's an emergency vehicle or a police officer then things change yet again.

There is never a time when you can Stop & just Go. You never "have" right of way (ROW) because ROW is never given, only yielded. If you stopped at a 4-way stop 1st, the other drivers are required to yield to you. If you stopped simultaneously, you are required to yield to drivers to your right, and so on.

All of these signs essentially mean "Stop, and don't go again until it's safe t do so." When that is has to be understood by the driver.

Your basic concern seems to be that someone is going to pull up to a Stop & Yield sign and get hurt because they think that it's a Stop & Go.

To do this, they must 1st:

1) Assume that they may go immediately after stopping. This is never true.

2) Not notice that the other direction of traffic does not have stop signs. This would be a fundamental part of evaluating what to do at this intersection.

3) Pull out into a situation that would be unsafe regardless of the signs. What I mean by this is that even when you have a Stop & Go intersection you do not go if it doesn't appear safe to do so. A sign may have fallen, a car may blow through the intersection, someone may go out of order, etc.

There's such a thing as "Dead Right". This is the condition of being dead because you obeyed traffic laws but ignored the reality of traffic. People who are killed by going when the light turns green, for example, are Dead Right.

All of this is an attempt to address a human failing of awareness. What happens when we put up a new sign - one that is clearly Stop & Go - and then one of the opposing signs is taken down by teenagers? Now you have a truly dangerous situation. The driver has been assured that the other directions must stop, but this is no longer the case. 4-way or all-way stop signs have this liability. Is it really a 4-way stop intersection? Do all the other drivers recognize that? In either case you can't pull out on the assumption that others will behave as expected. If they don't you may be headed for Dead Right. The dangerous thing here is that someone thinks that any sign means Stop and then Go "even though there's a car hurtling towards the intersection that I assume will stop."

The neutral stop sign might produce better results in the "removed sign" scenario because a driver would look to see whether cross traffic had a sign or not. The potential for trouble here is that they might see a sign on the right and not check for an identical sign on the left, thereby missing that one side would not know to stop. You can still point to the driver for failing to correctly assess the intersection.

Neither of your 1st two answers are correct because all stop-signs mean stop and yield, except sometimes you might be yielded to as well. That's the bit you have to sort out, and your sign doesn't tell you that. You have to look at the rest of the road.

This stuff is basic awareness and defensive driving. What we need is not new stop signs, but better driver training and vetting.
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"The stars died so that you could be here today" - Lawrence Krauss

"The universe is huge and old, and rare things happen all the time." - Lawrence Krauss


Last edited by Mishlai on Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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ashlad
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Joined: 01 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, you've got a lot of time on your hands, Mish. All that for stop signs?
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Mishlai
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Joined: 22 May 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Lee's got the word count in this thread.
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You are the result of 4 billion years of evolutionary success.

Fucking act like it.

"The stars died so that you could be here today" - Lawrence Krauss

"The universe is huge and old, and rare things happen all the time." - Lawrence Krauss
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