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Stop and yield or stop and go?
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Stop and yield or stop and go?
At a stop sign you stop and after looking around you go.
33%
 33%  [ 6 ]
At a stop sign you stop and yield till all traffic is cleared.
11%
 11%  [ 2 ]
At a stop sign I get confused and look around a lot before I go.
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
I have been in an accident at a crossing with a stop sign.
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
I have never been confused nor was involved in an accident at a crossing with a stop sign.
55%
 55%  [ 10 ]
Total Votes : 18

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CrushFearSynth
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm almost positive that stop signs are legally binding in parking lots, especially if only one direction has one. It means the direction that doesn't have one always has the right of way, so the direction that has the sign must stop and stay stopped until all traffic has cleared from the other direction. If you disobey the sign and cause an accident, you are at fault and can be cited. Cops have jurisdiction everywhere, parking lots or no, so if they cite you, it's up to the judge to decide if it will be admissible. And let's face it, it will be.
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ashlad
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, Don't tell anyone, but Lee's not quite right in the head. They did things to him, you know.

*shudders*
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrushFearSynth wrote:
Cops have jurisdiction everywhere


Ever talk to a security guy that told you how on the job, he's got more power, jurisdiction, and general say-so than a cop--not to mention longer penises. I love listening to those douchebags. For about two minutes. Then I have to slap them.

It wasn't police jurisdiction I was questioning. It was the legal standing of the signs. Stop signs on the roads are put there by the appropriate authorities who have to follow all the appropriate legal hoo-haws and what not. They are government property. Stop signs in parking lots and other private facilities are not. I remember hearing more than once that all parking lot accidents are basically no fault unless somebody's drunk. Think of it like this, can you draw a bunch of lines and put up stop signs in your driveway, and expect them to be regarded in court as law? Remember that common sense only applies part-time in court--it's not even at the convenience of the court.

All in all, I don't know and am not inclined to be convinced either way easily. You still talk to that cop friend you mentioned a while back? Why don't you ask him sometime?
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Leedon
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why am I not right in the head? Mish and I said the same things, minus some wording issues in the ROW stuff. Public awareness is clearly the problem not the signs themselves.
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CrushFearSynth
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It wasn't police jurisdiction I was questioning. It was the legal standing of the signs.

I only meant that if a cop is present, they will cite you based on the fact you violated a posted sign. And since cops of a given area have jurisdiction over the entirety of said area, then the sign is certainly binding under law, simply because they will use it as a reason for the citation. Stop signs posted in parking lots are posted by the proper authorities, private lots have to follow traffic laws when there is a reasonable risk involved, such as a three way intersection within the lot. I think they can also be posted at the request of the lot owner, but they are still binding. Stop signs painted on the street might be paid for by the lot owner, I'm not sure.
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Glistam
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That web site is ridiculous and insulting to intelligent people, plain and simple. "Good answer, but not always correct" is bullshit. "1 out of every 6 drivers killed at a crossing"? Where is your source?

"Sixteen percent of drivers in our analysis were killed because another driver either did not see, purposely ignored, or showed poor judgment at a stop sign." This has nothing to do with the confusion of stop signs, and everything to do with the people driving, as Leedon said. And you threw it right there on the website? Are you trying to contradict yourself?

If one out of every six drivers is killed at stop signs, what about the other five? What are you doing about them? Aren't their lives important too?

I see the distinction you're trying to make though with your little "STOP and YEILD" and "STOP and GO" mspaint picture. I disagree with it, as anyone who ever bothered to pay attention in driver's ed or actually read through a driver's manual should be well versed in what to do in those amazingly similar, yet subtly different situations. Even if they aren't sure, simple self-preservation shoudl kick in to tell the driver in this situation that they shouldn't go until the road they're driving onto or across is clear. Someone who can't figure that out is a danger to themselves and others and should not be driving at all.

If you would like some education regarding stop signs and yeild signs, here's some place you could go:
Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices, straight from the Department of Transportation's website.
http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/HTM/2003r1/part2/part2b1.htm#section2B04

You could also check out various state's driver's manuals, where they explain what should be done at a stop sign. Here's a link to the Connecticut manual:
http://www.ct.gov/dmv/lib/dmv/20/29/ctdriver.pdf
I recommend checking out pages 55, 73, 75 and 76
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Last edited by Glistam on Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ashlad
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leedon wrote:
Why am I not right in the head? Mish and I said the same things, minus some wording issues in the ROW stuff. Public awareness is clearly the problem not the signs themselves.


I didn't read either post. I'm taking painkillers and they're playing hell with my attention span. I was just commenting on the length, in accordance with my hypocritical oath.
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CrushFearSynth
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't even visited the site. My initial comments were based on the poll question.
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Mishlai
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The parking lot is definitely nebulous territory. I had an accident in a parking lot once, and it was handled normally, but this is because there was an actual road with a painted division of lanes. The cop indicated that things would have been less clear otherwise.

The stop sign in a parking lot has nothing to do with jurisdiction, it has to do with the legality of the sign. If it's a "real" sign that was posted by the authorities, then its legit. If Home depot puts up a red wooden octagon with STOP written on it - I'm led to believe that this is not legally binding. It isn't posted, that's just a private sign put there to help traffic flow better.

I'm no expert on this stuff though...

By the way Lee, we posted simultaneously, which is why there is some overlap and some unaddressed contradiction between our posts. We're using the word "yield" differently, but whatever. I know what you mean.

Edit: Enforceability of private signs probably varies state to state, like the rest of traffic enforcement. I'm working off of Florida's laws, which I'm most familiar with. I'm not even certain of those though.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some more confusion on the matter, generally showing that it does indeed vary.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AoV4zjIt0xVby8kEVqPfFMwjzKIX?qid=20070301075344AAVjMP6
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Leedon
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like reading the good debates on the boards, but the only reason I'm posting is because this cause is stupid and in the end if it goes through it would be as dangerous and confusing as you're advertising.


To answer your original question of "why is this site not working on convincing people?" is simply because it's a dumb idea. I really don't like debunking on account of them being "dumb" but this is the third time this week I've had to do it and it's pissing me off. And it's still only Tuesday! I've been trying to explain it nice, too.
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Fredrick
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not once have I called anyone stupid, I called the idea stupid. You're trying to fix what isn't broken. The signs work just fine. The people don't.

Quote:
As you can see from this picture, it is not with the stop sign itself that I have a problem, it is the two situations in which it is used that deliver the confusion.


Page 75
Quote:
Stop Sign
A stop sign has eight sides and is red with white letters.You must come to a full stop at a stop sign or stop line,
if one is present. You must wait until crossing vehicles and pedestrians have cleared.You may pull forward only
when it is safe to do so.


Page 76
Quote:
Yield Sign
A yield sign is a downward pointing triangle. It is red and white with red letters. It means you must slow down
and yield
the right-of-way to traffic in the intersection you are crossing or roadway you are entering.


Yield is for yield signs, stop is for stop signs. You're trying to confuse people and that's wrong. There's a reason that they use the word "wait".

Page 55-56
Quote:
Right-of-Way
Where vehicles or pedestrians are likely to meet one another and there are no signs or signals to regulate traffic, there are rules
that dictate which driver must yield the right-of-way. These rules tell who goes first and who must wait in different traffic situations.
The law says who must yield the right-of-way. It does not give anyone the right-of-way.You must do everything you can to prevent
striking a pedestrian or another vehicle, regardless of the circumstances.
The following “right-of-way” rules apply:
• You must obey signals given by a law enforcement officer, even if the officer’s signals contradict the traffic signal.
• Drivers must yield the right-of-way at all times to pedestrians who are in a marked or unmarked crosswalk.
• Pedestrians using a guide dog or carrying a white cane have absolute right-of-way. Do not use your horn because it
could confuse or frighten the pedestrian.
• Drivers turning left must yield to oncoming vehicles going straight.
• Drivers entering a traffic circle or rotary must yield to drivers already in the circle.
• At an intersection where there is no stop sign, yield sign or oncoming traffic signal, drivers must yield to vehicles coming
from the right.
• At a four-way stop, the driver reaching the intersection first goes first (after coming to a complete stop). If more than one
vehicle arrives at the same time, the vehicle on the right goes first.

• Drivers entering a road from a driveway, alley or roadside must yield to vehicles already on the main road.
• Drivers may not enter an intersection unless they can get through it without having to stop.You should wait until traffic
ahead clears so that you are not blocking the intersection.
• Drivers overtaking a vehicle traveling in the same direction must yield to that vehicle, even if the vehicle is slowing or
coming to a stop.
• You must yield the right-of-way to a police vehicle, fire engine, ambulance or other emergency vehicle using a siren, air
horn or a red or blue flashing light. When you see or hear an emergency vehicle approaching from any direction you
must pull over to the right edge of the road, or as near to the right as possible, and stop your vehicle. You must remain
stopped until the emergency vehicle has passed, unless otherwise directed by a State or local police officer or a fire
fighter. If you are in an intersection, drive through the intersection before you pull over.
• You must stop for a school bus that is stopped with its red lights flashing whether it is on your side of the road, the
opposite side of the road, or at an intersection you are approaching.You are not required to stop if the bus is traveling
towards you and a median or other physical barrier separates the roadway. After the school bus’ red lights have stopped
flashing, watch for children along the side of the road and do not proceed until they have completely left the roadway
and it is safe to proceed.
• You must yield the right-of-way to trains crossing the roadway.


Only one different situation is listed and the answer is given, plain as day. Traffic accidents at stop signs are caused by people ignoring the rules, not by being confused. You want to change signs that are there for a reason.

-C

PS. Glistam called after his post and I told him to stop and yield until I got outside for better reception. Instead of stopping, he mumbled until I got where I was going.
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Mishlai
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your point is perfectly clear Fredrick, we just don't like it.

Also, Yield sign < Stop sign

You seem to be indicating that a Yield sign would be more restrictive than a Stop sign. This isn't the case. I believe Ash suggested a yield sign under a stop sign for your Stop & Yield. I don't like that either. It's confusing.

I'll tell you a story:

After hurricane Andrew, the power was down for a good long while, and things were torn up pretty badly. We didn't have traffic lights at a lot of intersections, and there were a lot of accidents initially.

People retrained themselves after a few days, and now every intersection became a 4-way stop. The accidents let up.

Then the power came back on and the traffic lights were restored. We started having a lot of accidents again. People performed a Stop & Go while cross traffic had a green-light. People retrained themselves after a few days, and the accidents let up again. Back to normal.

You could use that to argue either side I suppose.

If anything, I might support requiring 4-way stop signs to be posted as such so that the bare stop sign retained its "you are the inferior traffic" meaning. I'm done discussing this now.
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Glistam
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Section 2B.05 STOP Sign Applications
Guidance:
STOP signs should be used if engineering judgment indicates that one or more of the following conditions exist:

Intersection of a less important road with a main road where application of the normal right-of-way rule would not be expected to provide reasonable compliance with the law;
Street entering a through highway or street;
Unsignalized intersection in a signalized area; and/or
High speeds, restricted view, or crash records indicate a need for control by the STOP sign.


Quote:
Section 2B.09 YIELD Sign Applications
Option:
YIELD signs may be used instead of STOP signs if engineering judgment indicates that one or more of the following conditions exist:

When the ability to see all potentially conflicting traffic is sufficient to allow a road user traveling at the posted speed, the 85th-percentile speed, or the statutory speed to pass through the intersection or to stop in a reasonably safe manner.
If controlling a merge-type movement on the entering roadway where acceleration geometry and/or sight distance is not adequate for merging traffic operation.
The second crossroad of a divided highway, where the median width at the intersection is 9 m (30 ft) or greater. In this case, a STOP sign may be installed at the entrance to the first roadway of a divided highway, and a YIELD sign may be installed at the entrance to the second roadway.
An intersection where a special problem exists and where engineering judgment indicates the problem to be susceptible to correction by the use of the YIELD sign.


You're creating a cause and effect that doesn't exist Fred. Yuor only fact is that accidents happen at stop signs. You're interpreting that to mean there is confusion regarding stop signs. If you feel strongly about this, I suggest you poll a random sampling of people, say inthe mal or something, and ask them first and foremost if they have any confusion regarding stop signs. Then query them regarding the two situations you are using, and ask them if there's any confusion regarding the signs as to what they need to do.

You'll likely get some people who suggest that Stop signs get replaced with Yield signs, since most people treat them as Yield signs anyway. That doesnt' mean there is a problem with the sign.

Almost no-one drives the speed limit. Using your logic, the problem would be that the speed limit signs are confusing. Yet ask anyone and most people would tell you that they clearly understand what a speed limit sign is saying. They just choose to ignore it. It's the same thing with stop signs. How many people die every year from excessive speed-related accidents? I would bet it's more than one in six.

You keep ignoring the real problem here, which is people. People need to be held accountable for their actions. Why not start trying to impose stricter fines for violating stop signs and increase enforcement? That would be a much more effective solution to your "problem" and it would be a lot easier, and cheaper, to impliment.
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Mishlai
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I look forward to the day when my car drives itself. If the public ever accepts this idea, it'll be safer. Just don't let microsoft write the OS. Blue Screen of Death could take on a new meaning.

I'm led to understand that most commercial airliner landings are computer controlled these days, and that they do a better job than the pilots.

Autopilot failures resulting in deaths would be bigger news, but I'm willing to bet that their safety record would be better than that of human drivers. Plus I could read something on the way to work.

Of course, I could have all of these benefits now by taking mass transit, but then I don't control the destination and schedule...
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Fredrick
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 6:15 am    Post subject: Thank you! Reply with quote

Thank you all for your answers. I am going to think about what you have mentioned, and see what needs to be done to make my point come across more clearly or abandone the idea.

The one thing that remains unanswered is that the FHWA does not collect the data separately. I suspect the deadly accidents to happen at one- or two-stop sign intersections. Close to all of them.
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Mishlai
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That may be true, but it doesn't prove that confusion is the problem. If someone blows a 4-way stop, odds are better that no accident will result. They're just a more forgiving arrangement.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Question is: would better information change your idea about the set up? If close to all deadly accidents around stop signs happen on one- or two-stop sign intersections, would you favor experimenting in one state, for instance, by replacing all the stop signs that mean yield-to-all (in opposite to the other meaning of yield-until-its-your-turn) with yield signs?

Second question I have about stop signs in Europe: Have you seen locations where they use four stop signs at one intersection? I have traveled to Greece and Italy, but I don't think I saw four stop intersections there.
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Mishlai
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we had good data showing that 2-way stops being confused for 4-way stops caused accidents, and this was significant when compared to other traffic problems, and solving it was more cost effective than solving other life-threatening traffic problems, then I would be interested. I'm not expecting this to be the case, and as I've indicated I'd like to see better driver training, testing, recertification, etc. We have good simulation technology, etc. but it goes unapplied. I know that when I first joined the road as a teen with a new license, that I was a hazard. I was lucky, and other drivers avoided my stupidity. The guy that gave me my license should have been taken out behind the DMV and shot. It doesn't have to be that way.

What you have right now is not a problem in need of a solution, but a hypothesis. An idea. It's interesting, but you're trying campaign for corrective action based on speculation, and it'll never get traction. If you want people to take seriously the idea that stop signs are broken, you'll need some pretty solid and damning evidence that this needs fixing.
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