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Discussion: Supreme Court Rulings
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Trassin
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reference to what law requires this?
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chowda
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exzavier wrote:
Didn't know where to put this but what do you think of the government requiring Backup Camera on all new cars?

Waste of money?

A Ford Fiesta or Honda Fit does not need a backup camera. Maybe it should have been just all new SUVs and Trucks.

States can do whatever they want, but I don't think there should even be federal emissions standards.

And Trassin, I'm sure the powers seeded to unelected officials was buried in an unreadable law over the past few years. Try the 2008 energy bill. Lots of fill in the blanks.
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Buddy Lee
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I'm backing up in my Focus and I hit something, I expect to be dragged from my car and beaten to death.
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Trassin
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I miss read his original post. I thought he was posting that it was actually a law somewhere already. I didn't realize it was just an open ended question.
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Exzavier
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is a proposal now:

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/daily-news/101206-DOT-Require-Rearview-Cameras-by-2014/
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Mishlai
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems a bit much to me at this point. I'm not aware that back-up accidents are causing a high enough proportion of car-related deaths to warrant this kind of focus.

If they are, I would much rather see regulation that requires the problem to be solved, than regulation enforcing a particular solution.

If the issue is visibility, then require visibility through whatever means. It doesn't have to be a camera. Proximity alarms might be a substitution for visibility, and then there are mirrors and different vehicle frame designs.

I can see the good intent, but it also smells like maybe a camera manufacturer has been making campaign donations.
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CrushFearSynth
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to mention American car companies are already clearly damaged economically, requiring them to spend more money on something that is statistically insignificant is silly. And that money will be forwarded to us during the sale, and most people are trying to save. A lot of nonsense, I say. How about we just make it harder for people to be able to legally drive by making damn sure they can before letting them on the road? The standards in most European countries is a lot stiffer than here, and they are better off. No more 15 and 16 year olds behind the wheel, for one. That's just plain dumb, always has been.
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chowda
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Health insurance mandate unconstitutional

I don't see the current US Supreme Court overturning this ruling.
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CrushFearSynth
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm happy about that, but if forcing people to buy health insurance or pay an opt out fee is unconstitutional, then forcing us to buy auto insurance or pay an uninsured motorist fee is just as unconstitutional. VA sucks.
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Buddy Lee
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrushFearSynth wrote:
I'm happy about that, but if forcing people to buy health insurance or pay an opt out fee is unconstitutional, then forcing us to buy auto insurance or pay an uninsured motorist fee is just as unconstitutional. VA sucks.


I concur.
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"What cheers me up? Um... I suppose mainly gloating over the misfortunes of other people. I guess that has to be it. Yeah, mainly crowing over the miseries of others. It doesn't always work, but it never completely fails. And then there's irony. There's irony, which is the gin in the campari, the cream in the coffee. Um... Sex can have diminishing returns, but it's amazing. Uh, no that's pretty much it, then it's a clear run to the grave." -Christopher Hitchens

Course title every university should offer: "How to tell when someone else is full of shit" -Neil deGrasse Tyson in a Q&A session on reddit
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Trassin
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrushFearSynth wrote:
I'm happy about that, but if forcing people to buy health insurance or pay an opt out fee is unconstitutional, then forcing us to buy auto insurance or pay an uninsured motorist fee is just as unconstitutional. VA sucks.


Not according to supreme court precedent. I can't look up references because I'm using my phone but the Health Care bill is treated as different than the other things you mentioned because it attempts to tax individuals for choosing to NOT purchase something.
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Trassin
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm home now and, thankfully, someone else did the heavy lifting for me: http://volokh.com/2010/12/13/key-points-in-virginia-v-seblius/
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CrushFearSynth
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They both do. If you don't want health insurance, the new law requires you pay a fee, which incurs taxes. If you don't want auto, you pay the state an uninsured motorist fee, which incurs taxes. They are exactly the same thing. Unless you are saying that you get heavier taxes on your income. In that case it would be slightly different. But not different enough to warrant a separate standard.
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Trassin
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's different because you have to pay one because you choose to drive, the other is a penalty for choosing not to do something.

Also, you are talking about a state tax/penalty vs a federal penalty. States have far more liberty in what type of taxes and penalties they can issue than the federal government does.
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CrushFearSynth
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depends on the state's constitution. Driving is a federal privilege, not a state privilege. And if the health care mandate is unlawful by the state constitution, so then must be the auto insurance mandate. Doing something or not doing something is picking at straws, you are still being coerced into purchasing something or paying a penalty. Besides, you could say that while you are paying to be able to drive but not get insurance, you could also argue that you would be paying to go to the doctor but not have insurance. Regardless of whether you choose to drive your car, you still have to do one or the other. It isn't realistic to argue that you can choose not to own a vehicle in this day and age, it is very difficult to live without one in most circumstances. So it ends up being the same thing.
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Mishlai
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Though I haven't read the article you linked, I definitely sympathize with not wanting to be penalized for not doing something.

On the other hand, participation is a big deal in insurance. The concept only works well if risk is spread out among a population without a great deal of self-selection. If you do allow self-selection then the people who know that they are at higher risk tend to seek out insurance, and those who believe they have low risk are more likely to take their chances without insurance.

This dilemma is why group rates are lower as long as a certain percentage of the group signs up. Making the coverage truly universal makes it more affordable per person because the higher cost cases are diluted into a larger pool of healthy individuals.
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chowda
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Schwarzenegger vs Entertainment Merchants oral arguments on C-Span right now.
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chowda
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mishlai wrote:

On the other hand, participation is a big deal in insurance. The concept only works well if risk is spread out among a population without a great deal of self-selection. If you do allow self-selection then the people who know that they are at higher risk tend to seek out insurance, and those who believe they have low risk are more likely to take their chances without insurance.

Health insurance isn't the same as normal insurance. Health insurance comes with benefits in the form of care, most other insurance does not. The other kinds protect against things that should not happen. In the case of car insurance, you are protecting against somebody else hitting you. In the case of life insurance, you are protecting your family against an untimely death.

It is normal to get sick. It is normal to get expensively sick before you die. Health insurers are sometimes required to offer absurd things like health club memberships and toga per state law.

It's for those reasons that the more people who normally couldn't afford such care on their own sign up for health insurance, the more expensive the "insurance" will be.
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CrushFearSynth
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very good point.
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Trassin
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of ObamaCare: http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB10001424052748703581204576033862848034544-lMyQjAxMTAwMDIwNjEyNDYyWj.html#articleTabs%3Darticle
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