The Blue Elephant Brigade Forum Index The Blue Elephant Brigade
Games, Anime, Movies, Life
 
    FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Discussion: Supreme Court Rulings
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... , 16, 17, 18  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Blue Elephant Brigade Forum Index -> General Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Mishlai
Brigadier Survivor
Brigadier Survivor


Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 6226
Location: Dry Land

PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chowda wrote:
It's for those reasons that the more people who normally couldn't afford such care on their own sign up for health insurance, the more expensive the "insurance" will be.


Umm, what? If you meant that the total cost of providing medical care to more people goes up, then yes, it probably does. If you mean the per person insurance premium goes up, then I fail to follow your logic.

We need also consider that there is currently a hidden cost in the system - uninsured people receive emergency care without paying for it, and these costs are absorbed by those who do pay for their health care. Going to the Emergency Room is pretty cost-inefficient, so these people are actually costing us more money than if we just payed for them to go to the clinic before the condition became an emergency.

Quote:
It is normal to get sick. It is normal to get expensively sick before you die. Health insurers are sometimes required to offer absurd things like health club memberships and toga per state law.


I don't think gym memberships or yoga are absurd at all. Some insurance companies have chosen to offer reimbursement on gym memberships because it just makes financial sense. This really ought to be pretty obvious. That's taking place in an environment where people often change health insurance when they change jobs - every 3-5 years or whatever - and the insurance company can't know that they'll be saving themselves money by paying for your gym membership now because you might not be under their coverage later. From a more macroscopic view - the total cost of keeping a person healthy across their lifetime regardless of what coverage they have when - having a healthy exercise regimen is a no-brainer.

I think the real argument comes down to something much more simple. You either believe in a more strict meritocracy where the people who can afford health care are the ones who deserve it, or you moderate that meritocracy with the notion that even people who can't pay for it should have access to modern health care.

We also don't account for the costs of losing a person to an illness - that does have an economic cost, essentially whatever that person's productive output would have been for the rest of their lives if health care had been rendered. Usually this would be on the lower end of the spectrum as more productive people tend to have insurance, but this isn't always the case either. Some people have a pre-existing condition that isn't covered because they had a lapse in the past, or aren't carrying insurance because of hard times, or because they're starting a business, or some other reason. Maybe they just gambled on their health and lost.

Part of the new health care bill is requiring insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions. Because of that, anyone could call an insurance company on the way to the hospital and get a policy, essentially cheating the system. Universal coverage avoids that problem by having everyone pay in, which brings us back to one of your points:

Everyone is a consumer of health care. It therefore makes sense for everyone to pay in.

Regarding Trassin's link, I don't know if ObamaCare is constitutional or not, but I do think that some form of universal health care would be a good idea. It's dumb to let people suffer from diseases when we have the technology to cure them.
_________________
You are the result of 4 billion years of evolutionary success.

Fucking act like it.

"The stars died so that you could be here today" - Lawrence Krauss

"The universe is huge and old, and rare things happen all the time." - Lawrence Krauss
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CrushFearSynth
Brigadier Survivor
Brigadier Survivor


Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 9017
Location: Sterling, VA

PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
so these people are actually costing us more money than if we just payed for them to go to the clinic before the condition became an emergency.

Not true, because health insurance or no, the majority of people do wait until something is an emergency before taking care of it, on a regular basis. And the cost of the care is always the same, so you aren't doing anything at all to mitigate cost. In one scenario, we end up paying for those folks, but in the other, we end up paying for them AND an additional tax.

Covering yoga classes and gym memberships are absurd, because they are totally unnecessary. There is nothing those facilities offer that you can't do on your own, and the impetus required to buckle down and do that stuff is the same impetus it takes to get up, go to a gym or yoga class, and participate regularly. It isn't a reasonable cost.
_________________
"The cheese stands alone." - Madhatte
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mishlai
Brigadier Survivor
Brigadier Survivor


Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 6226
Location: Dry Land

PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't agree on the exercise point at all. People are much more likely to work out when there's a group activity focused on it.

Regarding the first point, going to the emergency room still costs more than going to a clinic. What do you mean by "and an additional tax?"
_________________
You are the result of 4 billion years of evolutionary success.

Fucking act like it.

"The stars died so that you could be here today" - Lawrence Krauss

"The universe is huge and old, and rare things happen all the time." - Lawrence Krauss
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CrushFearSynth
Brigadier Survivor
Brigadier Survivor


Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 9017
Location: Sterling, VA

PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The care itself costs the same.

Quote:
People are much more likely to work out when there's a group activity focused on it.

No they aren't. Those facilities exist now, and the majority of citizens don't use them. People that have private insurance still don't go to the doctor regularly, covering those services would not incentivize people to use them more either.

Additional tax meaning you have to shell out more taxes to cover the cost of provided insurance under a public option, or for the subsidized free clinics we have now.
_________________
"The cheese stands alone." - Madhatte
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
chowda
Brigadier Commando
Brigadier Commando


Joined: 13 Aug 2008
Posts: 2631
Location: Rhode Island

PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mish, you simply lost the plot. Your original point was based completely in the insurance world. You fail to recognize the difference between an insurance plan and a benefit plan, what health insurance has turned into.

And your theory to practice has failed the real world test. The more services that are mandated by states, the higher the insurance plans have become. In Massachusetts, forcing private plans to offer certain levels of care, as well as superfluous things like health club memberships, has driven people off those costly plans and into the state-run plan, which in turn has overrun the system. Luckily, they have secured billions in federal dollars to fill some of the hole they are in.

I guess if your goal is to bankrupt the private healthcare industry, I can see you looking at that as a good thing. If not, the more mandates, the higher the plans cost.
_________________
"Doctor Wu, your knowledge of scientific biological transmogrification is only outmatched by your zest for kung-fu treachery!" - Black Dynamite

"Don't like the anime so much....but this just looks....well....."holy shit awesome." Crush exhibiting his superb observational skills referring to this movie
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mishlai
Brigadier Survivor
Brigadier Survivor


Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 6226
Location: Dry Land

PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chowda wrote:
Mish, you simply lost the plot. Your original point was based completely in the insurance world. You fail to recognize the difference between an insurance plan and a benefit plan, what health insurance has turned into..


No, I don't. I haven't made any mention of that, but I'm aware of it.

Links supporting your other points would be appreciated.
_________________
You are the result of 4 billion years of evolutionary success.

Fucking act like it.

"The stars died so that you could be here today" - Lawrence Krauss

"The universe is huge and old, and rare things happen all the time." - Lawrence Krauss
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mishlai
Brigadier Survivor
Brigadier Survivor


Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 6226
Location: Dry Land

PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrushFearSynth wrote:
People that have private insurance still don't go to the doctor regularly, covering those services would not incentivize people to use them more either.


If that were true then the coverage would have no additional costs. This is nonsense. I know plenty of people who have something they want(ed) to see the doctor about and are waiting/have waited until they have insurance to deal with it, or acknowledge that there is a problem and have simply resigned themselves to walking it off because they don't have money in their budget for care.

I personally carry a high-deductible policy because what I want is insurance against catastrophic illness. I can pay for regular visits, medicines if required, gym memberships, and so on. "I can pay" is the key phrase though.

I refuse to accept that in one of the richest countries in the world that we cannot afford to offer medical care - even basic, non-heroic medical care - to all of our citizens. It becomes a moral question at that point.
_________________
You are the result of 4 billion years of evolutionary success.

Fucking act like it.

"The stars died so that you could be here today" - Lawrence Krauss

"The universe is huge and old, and rare things happen all the time." - Lawrence Krauss
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CrushFearSynth
Brigadier Survivor
Brigadier Survivor


Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 9017
Location: Sterling, VA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is true. I have firsthand knowledge of this. It is a bad idea, no matte how you try to rationalize it.
_________________
"The cheese stands alone." - Madhatte
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Buddy Lee
Brigadier Trainee
Brigadier Trainee


Joined: 22 Oct 2005
Posts: 990

PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrushFearSynth wrote:
It is true. I have firsthand knowledge of this. It is a bad idea, no matte how you try to rationalize it.


Spelling -5
_________________
"What cheers me up? Um... I suppose mainly gloating over the misfortunes of other people. I guess that has to be it. Yeah, mainly crowing over the miseries of others. It doesn't always work, but it never completely fails. And then there's irony. There's irony, which is the gin in the campari, the cream in the coffee. Um... Sex can have diminishing returns, but it's amazing. Uh, no that's pretty much it, then it's a clear run to the grave." -Christopher Hitchens

Course title every university should offer: "How to tell when someone else is full of shit" -Neil deGrasse Tyson in a Q&A session on reddit
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jon Boy
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 300

PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ maybe he was hoping the great melon would rationalize the statement. after all, isn't the great cranium supposed to be all knowing?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CrushFearSynth
Brigadier Survivor
Brigadier Survivor


Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 9017
Location: Sterling, VA

PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spelling ok, keyboard obeisance -5.
_________________
"The cheese stands alone." - Madhatte
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jon Boy
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 300

PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

don't hate
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Exzavier
Brigadier Commando
Brigadier Commando


Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 3329
Location: Richmond, VA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How is this good for consumers forcing them to use Time Warner by passing a bill written by Time Warner?

http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/North-Carolina-House-Passes-AntiCommunity-Fiber-Bill-113433
_________________
"Fuckin' Amesome" --- Joe Flacco
"I love watching special effects on my iPad." ---Howard Stern
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Trassin
Brigadier Legate
Brigadier Legate


Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 10146
Location: Malabo, Equatorial Guinea

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who said it was good for consumers?
_________________
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. - Albert Einstein
"Raccoons oscillate at 50Hz in Europe." - FAWBOTS
"I'm not sure I'm up for orgy scrabble parties" - Female Friend
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Mongolio
Brigadier Elite
Brigadier Elite


Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 4976

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Time Warner Surprised
_________________
Core meltdown (commonly known as a meltdown) is an accident scenario in nuclear reactors, and is one of the possible modes of failure for light water reactors, during which the reactor pile turns into a pile of reactor.
---RationalWiki

If Jesus had existed, his DNA would have been 99% similar to that of a chimpanzee. Or you. You're 99% Jesus.
-- RationalWiki
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Trassin
Brigadier Legate
Brigadier Legate


Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 10146
Location: Malabo, Equatorial Guinea

PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
After a marathon weekend viewing of all three prequels, the Plaintiff and his son experienced nausea, confusion, light-headnesses, shortness of breath, tinnitus, and a "foreboding sense of ennui."


http://www.abnormaluse.com/2011/04/star-wars-prequels-unreasonably.html
_________________
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. - Albert Einstein
"Raccoons oscillate at 50Hz in Europe." - FAWBOTS
"I'm not sure I'm up for orgy scrabble parties" - Female Friend
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Exzavier
Brigadier Commando
Brigadier Commando


Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 3329
Location: Richmond, VA

PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On this week in tech ep. 299 they talked about two rulings. ATT won a case which lets them write in the EULA that end users cannot class action lawsuit them (ATT). The supreme court ruled in favor of ATT so Leo etc. were saying to expect all EULAs in the next few months to state you cannot class action lawsuit the company.

The second was that if you break the Internet Terms of Use of the company you work at you can be changed (Mongo edit: charged, I assume?) under Federal Anti-Hacking laws even if you are not hacking anything. Just if you break the "rules".
_________________
"Fuckin' Amesome" --- Joe Flacco
"I love watching special effects on my iPad." ---Howard Stern
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Trassin
Brigadier Legate
Brigadier Legate


Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 10146
Location: Malabo, Equatorial Guinea

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Few big cases being decided today.

Quote:
This morning, the Supreme Court is expected to issue merits opinions in the four remaining cases from the October 2010 term. Don’t expect unanimous opinions. Some of these cases have been under consideration for some time. Two were argued in January, and one last November. The last four cases are:

Brown v. Entertainment Merchants Association — a First Amendment challenge to California’s restrictions on sale of violent video games to minors.
McComish v. Bennett (consolidated with Arizona Free Enterprise Club v. Bennett) - a First Amendment challenge to Arizona’s law providing matching funds for publicly financed candidates.
Goodyear v. Brown — a case concerning the scope of general personal jurisdiction over foreign manufacturers.
J. McIntyre Machinery v. Nicastro — a case concerning the scope of in personam jurisdiction over foreign manufacturers.
The Court’s session will begin at 10am. SCOTUSBlog will provide live coverage.

_________________
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. - Albert Einstein
"Raccoons oscillate at 50Hz in Europe." - FAWBOTS
"I'm not sure I'm up for orgy scrabble parties" - Female Friend
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Exzavier
Brigadier Commando
Brigadier Commando


Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 3329
Location: Richmond, VA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://games.slashdot.org/story/12/01/31/216216/dutch-supreme-court-sees-game-objects-as-goods

"The Dutch Supreme Court ruled on January 31st that the taking away of possessions in the game Runescape from a 13-year-old boy, who was threatened with a (real) knife, was in fact theft because the possessions could be seen as actual goods. The highest court explained this not by arguing it was software that was copied, but by stating that the game data were real goods acquired through 'effort and time investment,' and 'the principal had the actual and exclusive dominion of the goods' — up until the moment the other guy took them away, that is."
_________________
"Fuckin' Amesome" --- Joe Flacco
"I love watching special effects on my iPad." ---Howard Stern
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Trassin
Brigadier Legate
Brigadier Legate


Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 10146
Location: Malabo, Equatorial Guinea

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way, if you missed it, the Supreme Court held their hearings on the Health Care Law and Individual Mandate over the past three days. Probably the biggest case of the century.
_________________
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. - Albert Einstein
"Raccoons oscillate at 50Hz in Europe." - FAWBOTS
"I'm not sure I'm up for orgy scrabble parties" - Female Friend
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Blue Elephant Brigade Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT + 13 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... , 16, 17, 18  Next
Page 17 of 18

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group