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Mishlai
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which included NC, btw. Good to know. Still, I'm a kinder gentler gun owner, and I'm not going to kill anyone unless I genuinely must.

In essence, if I shoot someone the circumstances were serious enough for me to not give a shit whether it was legal or not.

What is it my Dad used to say?


"I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6."
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Mishlai
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, and you should look at GA if you want to see a state that doesn't give a shit why you shot somebody, as long as you did it in your house.
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CrushFearSynth
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Which included NC, btw.

Not so fast, com padre. Hopefully this will have the unintended consequence of Wild West era shootouts.
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Loupy Lobo
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"You shoot me first!"
"No, you shoot me first!"
Does this sound retarded to anyone else?
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khimaira
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

loupy_lobo wrote:
"You shoot me first!"
"No, you shoot me first!"
Does this sound retarded to anyone else?

Anything you say sounds retarded! hah!
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Mishlai
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Not so fast, com padre. Hopefully this will have the unintended consequence of Wild West era shootouts.


That is the dumbest thing evar, but note that they did not say that this was the only circumstances in which a shooting would be legal. Only that this was an addition situation in which immunity from prosecution could be provided.
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CrushFearSynth
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
note that they did not say that this was the only circumstances in which a shooting would be legal.

The fact that under any other circumstances you would be tried for murder sort of implies it's illegal, don't you think?
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Mishlai
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correct, so the new law only applies in situations in which you would already have been tried for murder. The NC Castle laws mean that I would not be tried because of meeting other conditions, such as the person being in my house unlawfully and I have reason to believe that he is going to commit a felony.

I don't have to let the burglar shoot 1st to get out of hot water for defending myself, my home, etc.

The law is saying that it's (always) not murder if you give them the opportunity to shoot first. It isn't saying that it is (always) murder if you don't. Previously legal shootings are still legal, this only expands the conditions under which you can bust a cap.
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CrushFearSynth
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It isn't saying that it is (always) murder if you don't.

Yes it is. There's nothing specific in the wording of the law that makes exceptions. As written, it is extremely broad.
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Mishlai
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like boys.
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CrushFearSynth
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should hope so. If not, that would make me a rapist.
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Mishlai
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol
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Madhatte
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys are a bunch of dorks. From the bottom of the page:

Quote:
The fine print: the editorial content on this page is fictional. It is presented for entertainment purposes only. We cannot be held responsible for the actions of anyone who takes this sort of shit seriously.

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Mishlai
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's damn embarrassing. Also, you're still wrong Crush.
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CrushFearSynth
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, that's the third site I went to talking about it, and just happened to be the one I linked. I guess no one told N.C.'s state government it was a joke. In any case, I'm actually still right - you cannot kill an intruder unless you can reasonably prove your life is in danger. This includes N.C.'s version of the Castle Doctrine. You're still going through a Grand Jury hearing regardless. So there.
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Mishlai
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the fictitious article you linked doesn't discuss proving your life is reasonably in danger, so that isn't even what I was talking about. I'm discussing the let-them-shoot-first rule that doesn't actually exist.

And even the "life in danger" bit seems incorrect in this case, as unbelievable as that is:

(a) A lawful occupant within a home or other place of residence is justified in using any degree of force that the occupant reasonably believes is necessary, including deadly force, against an intruder to prevent a forcible entry into the home or residence or to terminate the intruder's unlawful entry (i) if the occupant reasonably apprehends that the intruder may kill or inflict serious bodily harm to the occupant or others in the home or residence, or (ii) if the occupant reasonably believes that the intruder intends to commit a felony in the home or residence.

Item (i) is what you're discussing, but item (ii) does not require my life to be in danger, just that he's in my home and about to commit a felony. I wouldn't shoot someone in those circumstances, but I could.
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You are the result of 4 billion years of evolutionary success.

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"The stars died so that you could be here today" - Lawrence Krauss

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Madhatte
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote]
Item (i) is what you're discussing, but item (ii) does not require my life to be in danger, just that he's in my home and about to commit a felony. I wouldn't shoot someone in those circumstances, but I could.[/quote]

Depends on the felony. If he's gonna steal my car, he can have it. It's insured. If he's gonna burn the house down with me in it, he's going down.
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We are going to have to stick a pin in a map, set fire to something and carry on until the earth looks flat! -- RandyMac

I could teach you to how file a washer to make it worth a nickel but if you really want to make big bucks just take a penny and drill a hole in it and it becomes a washer and is worth a dime. -- Art Martin, Old-Time Logger
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CrushFearSynth
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote]the fictitious article you linked doesn't discuss proving your life is reasonably in danger, so that isn't even what I was talking about. I'm discussing the let-them-shoot-first rule that doesn't actually exist.[/quote]
We were arguing that you had to be under threat of death or grievous harm in order to use deadly force. And we were both fooled by the shoot first law, but as I said, the first site I found was supposedly a government site. Also, in the case of N.C., it appears the Wiki is completely wrong, as there is no actual Castle Doctrine for that state. There is currently a petition to get the government to adopt one, which was submitted as a formal bill a while back. It hasn't completely been through both houses of N.C. government yet. As it stands, you may only fire your weapon at an intruder that is [i]trying[/i] to get into your home or car(e.g. through your door if someone is trying to break it down). Once they are fully within, you are required by law to retreat and cannot use deadly or any other force except to defend your life.
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Mishlai
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something appears to be wrong with the phpboard tags, I'll leave them in in case it starts working or something.

Quote:
There is currently a petition to get the government to adopt one


I don't know if this is what you're talking about, but this petition is a top google hit for a search of "nc castle doctrine." It's not very well written and has been up for years and has only received 1136 signatures. I suspect the site is not well conceived/maintained/informed.
http://www.petitiononline.com/law4nc/petition.html

"AND LEARN THEY ARE CONSEQUENCES FOR THEIR CHOICES IN LIFE. "

(sigh)

The most glaring reason to believe that the petition is either out of date or ill-conceived is that NC does have a Castle Doctrine Law in place already.

Quote:
Also, in the case of N.C., it appears the Wiki is completely wrong, as there is no actual Castle Doctrine for that state.


The text quoted in my previous post and in the wiki is NC state law as found here:
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-51.1.html

and here:
http://law.justia.com/northcarolina/codes/chapter_14/gs_14-51.1.html

Quote:
which was submitted as a formal bill a while back. It hasn't completely been through both houses of N.C. government yet.


I don't know what bill you're referring to here because you've provided no links or references.

Quote:
As it stands, you may only fire your weapon at an intruder that is trying to get into your home or car(e.g. through your door if someone is trying to break it down). Once they are fully within, you are required by law to retreat and cannot use deadly or any other force except to defend your life.


Untrue as described in the text of the law as quoted in previous posts and as listed in the links above.

Further, just in case there is some concern on your part that this is the law that has not passed both houses of the state legislature, I've provided an example of a court case in which the law is referenced:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=nc&vol=2002/&invol=304-01-1

In this particular case the Castle Doctrine was found not to apply and the defendant was found guilty, I am only illustrating that the law is being referenced in court.

This court case was filed in 2002, the law shows dates of 1993/1994 if I understand the notation correctly, and the copyright on the online petition I cited was 1999-2005, so I really don't know what that guy was doing aside from being a 'tard. The fact that this is already law may explain why he's received so few petition signatures for a pro-gun law in a fairly conservative state.


Last edited by Mishlai on Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:24 am; edited 2 times in total
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CrushFearSynth
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't know what bill you're referring to here because you've provided no links or references.

NC General Assembly Website. The bill itself. Note that there are two different Castle Doctrine bills. S1251 and H476(in the link), neither of which has yet to pass into law as of March of last year according to the site, with no further follow-up. S1251, the bill put forth in response to the petition, ends with it saying the act will become effective December 1, 2007. This does not mean it becomes law, as it has to pass both houses first, which it has not done.

The case you mentioned was likely referring to the national Castle Doctrine, which some states do not adopt. Alas, I cannot verify this as I do not have an account with FindLaw, so I can't access your link.

As it stands, if you shoot someone in NC, regardless of circumstances, you will go before a Grand Jury and be treated like a criminal, likely serving time in jail before the trail. The upside is that you are immune from civil prosecution if you are found not guilty.
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