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Death Knights
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Mojobacca
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 2:00 am    Post subject: Death Knights Reply with quote

I read this in a Gamespy article:

Quote:
Death Knights are also a pet class of sorts, but not in the traditional sense. They can channel an ability called Army of the Dead that spawns numerous undead minions that race out and attack nearby hostile targets. When these lesser peons aren't quite enough, the Death Knight can raise a fallen enemy (or ally) as a powerful ghoul which fights by their side. At first glance, the ghoul appears to offer as much utility and strength as a Hunter or Warlock pet, with its own special abilities like a disease-inflicting strike and a stun. Interestingly enough, when an ally is risen as a ghoul, a pop-up similar to that of a Warlock's soulstone appears, prompting the player to decide whether or not to control the ghoul. Considering the synergy that Death Knight abilities have with Undead allies, raising ghoul teammates in an arena environment should be interesting to say the least.


I found the bold print particularly interesting.
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DEATHFORCE: There are certainly crazy things you can do with this game, you can generate a world that is 3 times the size of earth before it starts having errors, although I dont know how long it would take to generate a world that large anyways lol

TRASSIN: I'm guessing about 21 days? Assuming you take a break every 7th day or so.
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Akuma
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something tells me they would disable that ability in arena; and if they don't, they'd make it too weak to do anything.
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Mojobacca
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm thinking more along the lines of another combat rez that could save a party. I'm not big on Arena's or WoW's PvP in general. Balancing a PvE game based on PvP stats is pretty rough to do, and I think they blew it.
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DEATHFORCE: There are certainly crazy things you can do with this game, you can generate a world that is 3 times the size of earth before it starts having errors, although I dont know how long it would take to generate a world that large anyways lol

TRASSIN: I'm guessing about 21 days? Assuming you take a break every 7th day or so.
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Akuma
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mojobacca wrote:
I'm thinking more along the lines of another combat rez that could save a party. I'm not big on Arena's or WoW's PvP in general. Balancing a PvE game based on PvP stats is pretty rough to do, and I think they blew it.


Yeah, I like the sound of the combat rez, in a PvE sense it's really interesting. I dunno, I'm very iffy about Death Knights right now, I'm afraid that a few things will happen:

a) They'll be way too OP
b) They'll replace druids as the best offtanks
c) They'll make one or two classes obsolete

I might be wrong, and I hope I am, but I just think it's going to be unbalanced.
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Mishlai
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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I may be the only one, but i'm totally a bliz fanboi. I think when you consider the complexity of the game, that they've done a truly good job at maintaining balance. Sometimes they've been slow to fix a wrong, but I actually prefer this to kneejerk reactions, as the overshoot tends to be worse than the original problem.

I trust them to do deathknights well and not make it game breaking.
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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just want Arthas to win. He's the only reason to even own Warcraft 3. Any players who manage to defeat him.....screw you guys to hell.
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Akuma
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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mishlai wrote:
I may be the only one, but i'm totally a bliz fanboi. I think when you consider the complexity of the game, that they've done a truly good job at maintaining balance. Sometimes they've been slow to fix a wrong, but I actually prefer this to kneejerk reactions, as the overshoot tends to be worse than the original problem.

I trust them to do deathknights well and not make it game breaking.


I used to feel very much the same way, but some of their knee-jerk changes lately that are supposed to create "balance" have me feeling otherwise. The most recent being giving hunters an instant cast 30s CD fear that only works on beasts, which was apparently supposed to "balance" arena, but really just nerfed druids into the ground.

I agree that overall they've done a good job, but this change in particular makes me question what direction we're headed in, when a bunch of whiners can make posts on the forums crying about how badly Class X needs to be nerfed because they can't beat them in duels, and Blizzard actually responds.

I'm not even an arena or PvP guy, it just bothers me when they make changes like this to balance around 2v2 or even 1v1, especially when it ends up affecting PvE.
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Mojobacca
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to be a fanboi, but after constant overpowered swings with a steroid injecting developer wielding a nerf-bat to "balance the game", I have to say I am no longer.

A vast majority of the "fixes" brought upon to "balance" the classes leaves the "fixed" class damaged. I'm not saying some of these weren't needed fixes, but after 3 years of existance and the supposed house testing that goes on why can't they finally have some balance to the game? It's because they respond to errors they see by over-correcting them. And thus they have to go back and hit some other class with the bat to "fix" them and bring them in line with the class they just "fixed". Then that cascades because each class gets nerfed harder than the previous.

Good examples include Hunters and Paladin. Hunters used to be pretty good in Arenas, then the RAP change occured along with non-scaling pets and BAM! they're virtually useless. Sure, Bliz gave them a "Mortal Strike" buff to Aimed Shot and a dispel effect for Arcane shot, but to what end? It hasn't changed anything since the one thing they WERE good for... traps... got nerfed to hell and back. Now traps are visible (well just a weak stealth) and announced when and what trap has been placed. So much for stealthy traps.

Paladin had the one thing that kept them viable in PvP... Divine Shield... dispellable and stealable. This is an unfortunate change, yes, but what really sucks is that the Paladin maintains the Forbearance debuff on him for attempting to use it. Sure they gave us Avenging Wrath to boost our DPS... except that we don't bother using it in PvP because it can be easily dispelled, or worse... stolen.

Luckily though, warlocks continue to be able to fear continuously. Warlocks complain that their fear breaks early all the time, but I beg to differ. I've never had a shortened duration fear put on any of my characters ever.

Back to Death Knights... when released, they will be game-breaking. I have no illusions about it otherwise. I do believe they will attempt to balance them within 2-3 patches due to Arena standings.

I still love WoW though. It's the best game out there and I'm still a fanboi for the most part. But I can see through the crap they've been dishing out in the game and I have seen reality.
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Quote:
DEATHFORCE: There are certainly crazy things you can do with this game, you can generate a world that is 3 times the size of earth before it starts having errors, although I dont know how long it would take to generate a world that large anyways lol

TRASSIN: I'm guessing about 21 days? Assuming you take a break every 7th day or so.
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Haven
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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, but really just nerfed druids into the ground.


They needed to do it, because there are no counters to Druids, outside of a Mace-spec rogue with double Wound poison, who gets the first shot.

I understand it's upsetting to Druid players, but welcome to "Getting CC'd like everyone else". I get tired of it taking 5 or 6 players to take down even a mediocre druid.
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Mishlai
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I get tired of it taking 5 or 6 players to take down even a mediocre druid.


1 Lock + felpup = dead druid. I might get smoked occasionally, but my gear is still shit and some of these uber-geared boonkins can moonfire you down in just a few hits.

Quote:
Warlocks complain that their fear breaks early all the time, but I beg to differ. I've never had a shortened duration fear put on any of my characters ever.


The warlock has some control over this. Dots and channeled spells don't break fear nearly as often, and you can get a pretty long fear run over this. If you hit someone with an immolate or a shadowbolt, fear will break *most* of the time. I've actually ignored nightfall procs during 1v1 pvp for this reason, even though it makes me cry on the inside to not use my instant shadowbolt. At the end of a fight I'd put out the damage even if fear broke, but when you're just getting started or particularly when you're in pvp soup it's more important to not break your CC.

I recently shadowbolted someone while they were feared and it didn't break; felt like Christmas.

Even with dots it breaks, but much, much less often. I can typically get a full or nearly full duration fear if I only dot and drain. There's randomness here. I've had fear break immediately after casting it, even on mobs (who are trinketless).

Aside from breaking on damage, it's more breakable, removable, and preventable than any other cc I can think of. You're also still moving, and fast. Trying to actually stand and cast a shadowbolt at a feared target usually results in the target being out of range or out of LoS before the cast finishes (another reason to drain life).

Still, I can sufficiently dot, drain and fear lock most casters to put them in the ground 1v1. Felpup doesn't hurt, either. That's usually enough "shush" to kill a caster.

Anyway, I don't think I could do a better job at balancing, and it's my guess that most of the people crying about blizzard's balancing would do a substantially worse job themselves. It's not an easy thing, our perspectives are skewed by our own limited experiences, etc. I submit that if you're not playing end game raid content and doing high end pvp with multiple classes then you're working with less information than blizzard is and may not see all of the reasons why they make the choices they do.

There was a great blue post in the lock forums by Timbal. It was a qqNurfLoks!!1! post about some lock face melting 5 people at once.

The blizzard poster said something like (paraphrase) "Please don't make these nerf posts. They don't affect our decision making because your one experience is just not statistically significant."

He then went on to add (quote):

"I mean... five people? At some point I suggest you assume responsibility for your ability to play the game."

I wish I could find the post. I just howled with laughter. Five people ran in fear for 8 seconds. I'm not sure what that was about.
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Akuma
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haven wrote:
Quote:
, but really just nerfed druids into the ground.


They needed to do it, because there are no counters to Druids, outside of a Mace-spec rogue with double Wound poison, who gets the first shot.

I understand it's upsetting to Druid players, but welcome to "Getting CC'd like everyone else". I get tired of it taking 5 or 6 players to take down even a mediocre druid.


No, RESTORATION druids are the problem, and honestly they're really not, I can detsroy them on my rogue, and she's not even very well geared. This nerf killed FERAL druids, who were already horrible at PvP, now they're even worse.

EDIT: And if it takes 5 or 6 players to take down a mediocre druid, those 5 or 6 players need to either stop wearing lv65 greens, or learn how to play.
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Akuma
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mojobacca wrote:
I still love WoW though. It's the best game out there and I'm still a fanboi for the most part. But I can see through the crap they've been dishing out in the game and I have seen reality.


I'll agree to this; the recent changes and such annoy me, but overall I do love the game, will of course keep playing. I think it's mostly the community crying and causing these changes that annoys me.
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Splinte
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well the druids you guys face are nubs then =D.

<-- Sitting at 360 resilience, and almost 1800 arena rating. Oh wait, I quit. lawl.
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mishlai wrote:
There was a great blue post in the lock forums by Timbal. It was a qqNurfLoks!!1! post about some lock face melting 5 people at once.

The blizzard poster said something like (paraphrase) "Please don't make these nerf posts. They don't affect our decision making because your one experience is just not statistically significant."

He then went on to add (quote):

"I mean... five people? At some point I suggest you assume responsibility for your ability to play the game."

I wish I could find the post. I just howled with laughter. Five people ran in fear for 8 seconds. I'm not sure what that was about.

Google cache
I'm sure it's not the real original post, but I can't look any better than this from work - game sites are blocked, but google cache is not! Hurray for loopholes!
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Akuma
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Splinte wrote:
Well the druids you guys face are nubs then =D.

<-- Sitting at 360 resilience, and almost 1800 arena rating. Oh wait, I quit. lawl.


Therefore it doesn't count!
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Eisen
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scare Beast isn't insta cast. They changed it at the last minute. They just made it 30yd instead of 10yd... Kinda irritating
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Mishlai
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Glistam. Here's the original: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=2215492394&postId=22151733160&sid=1#0

Blue posted on the 2nd page & then locked the thread, so his is the last post.
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Mishlai
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PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2008 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been playing closer attention since this conversation, and I retract slightly. Fear breaks more or less all the time, even with dots. It's better than direct damage, but still very unreliable.

My 1st fear should have a duration of 20 seconds. Even if it goes for 8 or 12 you're going to feel like you got fully CC'd

A lot of warlocks will qq that it isn't worth casting, but this is just qq. Fear is teh awesome even with its limitations.
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Eisen
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PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2008 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I accept that once fear hit me... I'll probably be dead before it wears off.
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Mojobacca
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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mish, when you are looking at Fears, is that PvE or PvP? I ask because all CC is limited to 10 sec tops for PvP fights, if I remember correctly that is.
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Quote:
DEATHFORCE: There are certainly crazy things you can do with this game, you can generate a world that is 3 times the size of earth before it starts having errors, although I dont know how long it would take to generate a world that large anyways lol

TRASSIN: I'm guessing about 21 days? Assuming you take a break every 7th day or so.
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