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Discussion of the week (3/28/05) - Gun Control
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Glistam
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:42 am    Post subject: Discussion of the week (3/28/05) - Gun Control Reply with quote



Discuss.
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Mongolio
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where did you find that, Glistam?
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Glistam
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oddly enough, from doing an image search for "barking dog shoot" or something like that. I thought it warranted discussion. I think this will be a weekly theme (discussion, not this picture).

I am in favor of the second amendment, the right to bear arms. I agree that there need to be some controls on it. But I heartily disagree that abolishing the second amendment is the way to prevent criminals from having guns. I agree with the picture to an extent. The purpose of the second amendment is to allow the people of the country to be able to defend themselves against an unjust government. It's a chacks and balances kind of thing. If our government gets too out of control, then we have the means to force change.

I am by no means advocating that we should rise up against the government, but at its core the second amendment needs to stay.

I also feel that if more people owned guns, there would in fact be less crime. Imagine the burglar who breaks into your house. If he knows before entering that it's likely you may be packing, and that the judicial system will side with the you if you shoot the burglar, than that burglar may think twice before breaking into your house.

Now, in the picture above, notice the clever linking of gun control to Nazi's. Everyone knows the Nazi's were bad. You don't want to be associated with them, now do you? Don't be a Nazi! Down with gun control!
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Mongolio
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also think the way you do on this issue (to a large extent), but I really dispise "pidgeon-holing" in advertising.

I took half a survey once. It was political in nature. About halfway through, I was asked if I agreed with the upstanding republicans or the criminal democrats. <sigh>
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Glistam
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mongolio wrote:
I took half a survey once. It was political in nature. About halfway through, I was asked if I agreed with the upstanding republicans or the criminal democrats. <sigh>

And the problem there is that as soon as something like that is seen, all objectivity is lost and the possibility for a rational discussion gets tossed out. The people who believe that will be happy seeing somethign like that on there, and the people who believe the opposite will be outraged. No rational discussion can result from that.

I imagine that anyone who did believe in gun control would find that image above offensive. I know I certainly wouldn't want to be compared to the Nazi's. It's propaganda that is, unfortunately, the kind of thing we see everywhere in today's modern world.
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Madhatte
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I own several guns in calibers ranging from .22 to .45, both rifles and pistols. I am reckoned by most to be a passable shot. When not using them, I keep them locked in a fireproof safe that only I know the combination to. When transporting them, they are locked in hard cases. I only shoot in controlled locations, and I always know both where my muzzle is pointed and where the bullet is going to land. I clean all of my guns after every use. Whenever I take somebody out who has never shot before, I teach them these things religiously, ESPECIALLY muzzle control. I am not a member of the NRA, but I agree with most of their politics. I don't hunt, but not because I don't think it's right--I'd just rather blow shit up. Target shooting on paper is how you get good. Plinking tin cans and glass bottles is fun. I advocate responsible gun use, and I don't think it's unnecessarily intrusive of the government to look into my legal record to see if I have a history of irresponsible gun use or crime before authorizing me to purchase a deadly weapon. Guns are like any other machine--dangerous in the wrong hands. Treat them with the proper respect and they are as rewarding a pastime and hobby as anything else.

There is also the issue of self-defense. Robert Heinlein once said "an armed society is a polite society". An unarmed society, by extension then, is a society of victims, where we rely on the protection of police and public authority to protect us. If the Watts riots and Kent State Massacre in 1968 and 1972 the Rodney King incident in the 1990's didn't teach us anything they taught us that our police and military are as fallible as anybody else. I have a license to carry a concealed weapon, and know how to use both concealment and the weapon it conceals. Yet, I very seldom do. Why? Because were I live, I don't feel compelled to. Yet, not too long ago my roommate was mugged at gunpoint on my doorstep. So--how do I feel about gun control? I'd say that I believe it is the responsibility of each and every one of us to make up our own mind on the subject and to act accordingly. I believe that the government, on the whole, has our best intentions in mind but are often incompetent to attend to them. I believe that to be truly self sufficient, you should know how to change a tire, sew a hole in your shirt, cook a meal, and fire a rifle. I believe that gun safety is EVERYBODY'S responsibility.

Oh, and for God's sake, OBEY YOUR RANGEMASTER. He's there for your safety.
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Resheph
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I whole-heartedly agree Hatte. I've been shooting since I was 13, my fathers outlook on guns is identical to yours. He brought me down to the range and had me go through a couple of there firearm safety courses, then gave me a lecture of his own. I still remember everything I learned that day like it was yesterday, I still hear the words in my head at times. Unfortuntly though if more people were carrying we'd all end up dead, 90% of the morons out there could NOT distinguish between a scary situation, and a life threatening situation. Guy walks up to me looking very angry at something and a bit scary, my hand is on my blade ready in case (Im a huge fan of blades, and Im not 21 yet so I don't own any firearms) , that same guy walks up to me with a baseball bat: Hand on blade, finger through quickdraw loop, if he so much as begins to wind up with that bat I'll have my blade drawn and have disabled his arm then have dropped him to the ground before he could blink. Self defense right? Maybe....until I get sued for completely disabling the guys arm for the rest of his life, and possibly one of his legs too. Moral of the story? When you here gun nuts talking about the #1 rule, its for that specific reason (goes for knives too of course). You don't draw unless you or someones life is in immediate danger, you don't draw unless you plan to shoot, and you don't shoot unless you plan to kill (otherwise they come back and sue you Evil or Very Mad )

Once againt though, we're back to the 90% of the people out there are incapable of comprehending things like that though. Gun's will always be a danger in one sexy black .45 package. Confused
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Immyls
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whereas i have to agree with most points thus far listed(my son practices muzzle control with his hand when he is pretending it is a gun)(his mother won't let him have toy guns, so he does the best he can with his hand), i have to disagree with the rise up and overthrough the government point, not because i think it is wrong to do so(nessicarrily), but rather because i don't think its feasable any longer. i agree that it was once possible, and was the original intent of the second ammendment, but i don't think it is a feasable possibility any longer. i had this conversation with someone(trassin i think) on the old board, and he linked a wonderful disertation on how it is no longer feasable to overthrough the government with militia style orginizations, but also why it is still important to maintain the right to bear arms. i can't remember where the conversation was, or i would look up the link and relink it here. but in anycase, just to play devil's advocate, i must point out that while hatte's quote of heinlein was correct, heinlein also wanted to sleep with his daughter, niece, or any other female relitive who he could get to stand still for long enough. do you really want to build a society on the words of a sicko like that?

oh, and just by the by, i also support the right to keep and arm bears.
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Madhatte
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
do you really want to build a society on the words of a sicko like that


One quote for illustrative purposes does not a Communist Manifesto make. I was just pointing out the idea that if we all regard each other as potentially dangerous, then we will not assume each other to be sheep or would-be victims. There is security in knowing that good manners come from the fear of reprisal.
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Ryrra
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Intresting points I will have to think more on this topic to give it proper consideration.
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Immyls
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

good point hatte. he does have good quotes every now and then... he also has one that runs like your closing statement. i just wouldn't go too far with his stuff. it gets weird. kind of like the ratio of space inside your head to the space outside your head.
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Madhatte
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's probably also a safe one to point out that if you insist on dissing on the Heinlein, I will have no choice but to sic Haven on you. You wouldn't want that, trust me.
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We are going to have to stick a pin in a map, set fire to something and carry on until the earth looks flat! -- RandyMac

I could teach you to how file a washer to make it worth a nickel but if you really want to make big bucks just take a penny and drill a hole in it and it becomes a washer and is worth a dime. -- Art Martin, Old-Time Logger
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Immyls
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

actually, i'm pretty sure i can beat haven down on heinlein. i have read damn near everything the man has written. he may be a sicko, but if you ignore the insest, its some pretty good pulp fiction. i have an ex-girlfriend who calls him the starting reader for philip k dick.
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Madhatte
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
i'm pretty sure i can beat haven down on heinlein


Oooh! Oooh! This I wanna see.
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We live in an amazing, amazing world, and it's wasted on the crappiest generation of spoiled idiots. -- Louis CK

We are going to have to stick a pin in a map, set fire to something and carry on until the earth looks flat! -- RandyMac

I could teach you to how file a washer to make it worth a nickel but if you really want to make big bucks just take a penny and drill a hole in it and it becomes a washer and is worth a dime. -- Art Martin, Old-Time Logger
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Immyls
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

<<looks left>>
<<looks right>>
((this is your chance to object haven...))
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Mojobacca
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My take on gun control is kind of two-sided.

On one side, I agree that we should be able to bear arms in accordance with the 2nd Amendment.

On the flip side, I don't want just anyone to carry one.

The whole point behind the 2nd Amendment allowing for us to arm ourselves, really is pointless now. Being allowed to carry a rifle/handgun isn't going to do much for us as a people if the military opts to overthrow the government or if the Pres. decides it's time to take over.

.45 Mag or 9mm < Tank.

Unfortunately I can't think of any good way to control firearm distribution better than what we have in theory.
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Immyls
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

honestly, the only way to ensure better control is either to let everyone have guns, and wait for the idiots to breed out, or to make a death penalty enforced on those who have guns illeagaly. alright, those prolly aren't the only ways, but those are the first two that pop to mind.

also, in an unrelated topic, i notice that all of us jumped on the gun control bandwagon, with only passing mention to the propoganda side of the house. i don't really have anything to say about the propoganda, but i do wonder what it says about us as a group that we all by unspoken concensus ignored that portion of the conversation.
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Haven
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That would be because, for the most part, this group is smart enough to see propoganda for what it is.

Now, about that Heinlein thing: Robert Heinlein was not into incest, or cannabalism, or a lot of the other things his characters did... His big thing was poking people with their own taboos. He wanted people to look at a topic, and really think about it, before writing it off. Incest was a very, very easy topic for him, because once you eliminate the genetic issues (Which he often did, as it was Sci-Fi) there isn't a good reason for it to be wrong ("It's icky" doesn't count for the purposes of this discussion).

Back to this gun thing, before Glistam blows a synapse: I, personally hate guns. They make it too easy to kill, and killing anything living should be well thought out. That being said, Guns exist, and are a powerful bit of tech. If only one group holds that power, the ability to abuse is far too tempting. So, I'm all about the 2nd Amendment.

I would, however, like gun safety classes to be mandatory, and free.
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Mongolio
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haven wrote:
Now, about that Heinlein thing: Robert Heinlein was not into incest, or cannabalism, or a lot of the other things his characters did... His big thing was poking people with their own taboos. He wanted people to look at a topic, and really think about it, before writing it off. Incest was a very, very easy topic for him, because once you eliminate the genetic issues (Which he often did, as it was Sci-Fi) there isn't a good reason for it to be wrong ("It's icky" doesn't count for the purposes of this discussion).


A most excellent explanation. I was going to essay something similar. You put it more eloquently than I would have been able to, however.

Scott Adams (creator of Dilbert) once said that people write to him because they agree/disagree with "his views". He replied that people don't know what his views are. They know what Dilbert's/PHB's/Wally's/Dogbert's/Etc's opinions are. To paraphrase how he concluded: Freedom of speech is good and all, but you really ought to keep that sort of thing to yourself.

My point is that just because you write about something (a lot), it doesn't mean that is your opinion on the matter. As Haven said, I believe Heinlein did it just to tweak some extremely closed-minded people's noses.
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Yobun
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

speaking of gun control, anyone heard from funkyjoe and why he isn't posting here anymore?
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