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Discussion of the week (3/28/05) - Gun Control
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Madhatte
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I talked to him not too long ago.  He's well and enjoying life and hasn't offered a very good excuse for not posting.  That's about all I know.
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We are going to have to stick a pin in a map, set fire to something and carry on until the earth looks flat! -- RandyMac

I could teach you to how file a washer to make it worth a nickel but if you really want to make big bucks just take a penny and drill a hole in it and it becomes a washer and is worth a dime. -- Art Martin, Old-Time Logger
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SPyder
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

I am a firm believer in the right to own guns. I myself do not own any because, as a very good friend of mine said (CoughHavenCough), I have poor impulse control. That being said, I have to say that some people I consider to be rather intelligent people go a little overboard when it comes to this rule. Its almost like my wife telling me I could buy as many movies as I want...suddenly I have a huge collection of shit I never needed nor wanted really. Then my kids go digging through this and bang they are watching Dawn of the Dead and not sleeping for a month....but I digress. What I am trying to say is Yes we should be able to own weapons but the punishments for poor weapon control should be severe. If my kid gets into my gun cabinet and go shoots up the high school I should be held responsible if every means to keep him out were not employed.
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Leedon
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the topic of gun control, I agree with Hatte(saying that was icky).  I also agree with Haven(I don't want anyone to point and click me on the street).

My current second job, the Navy Reserves, requires me to be qualified with 4 weapons of varied sizes and I don't care for any of them.  I'd rather just use my wrench at work.  I'd probably defend myself better with it anyways, if it came down to it.

-Leedon
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Immyls
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok.  i'm glad that someone else has enough brains to see what heinlein was doing(i also like poking peoples taboos, or more specifically, causeing them to break them, and then pointing out to them that they have done so.  its where all my bad karma comes from.).  as for the guns, i must say that i don't own any, nor do i know enough to responcibly keep one did i own it(cleaning issues, the gun safety i had drilled into me at an age where it was impractical to make me clean the things).  i'm hoping to fix the second issue, as i have a suspicion that on the unfortunate day that my progenitors pass, i will suddenly own a small arsenal of shooting irons.  my father both hunts, and shoots skeet.  oh, and did i mention that he likes to restore old guns as a hobby?  

and, yes, i think lee would be much more deadly with a wrench than a gun.  we are after all talking about the man who confused me with haven.  with eyes like that, i doubt he could hit the end of the barrel with a gun.
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Madhatte
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The important thing is to keep it all in perspective.  I would never advocate that every slack-jawed yokel and gangsta thug in the country be issued a gat;  on the contrary, I advocate education, respect, and restraint.  What I am against is anything that singles out groups--that is, if guns were illegal, gun owners would all be criminals.  That is unacceptable in a free society, and is certainly unacceptable in America.  It is my belief that violent crime committed with guns is the unavoidable result of our culture of victimization;  in a land where a person can sue a major corporation because their coffee was too hot, is it any wonder that the criminal element would think to take advantage of people's timidity?
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We live in an amazing, amazing world, and it's wasted on the crappiest generation of spoiled idiots. -- Louis CK

We are going to have to stick a pin in a map, set fire to something and carry on until the earth looks flat! -- RandyMac

I could teach you to how file a washer to make it worth a nickel but if you really want to make big bucks just take a penny and drill a hole in it and it becomes a washer and is worth a dime. -- Art Martin, Old-Time Logger
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Kellion
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:08 am    Post subject: Gun Control <reads on> <snore> Reply with quote

You know, I really would post my opinion here, but I am like the majority of americans and too lazy to get the whole story. So to jump off the band wagon...I have no Comment for my opinions are mine and you can have them.  Razz

<editted to point out that the Razz Smiley sucks>
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Madhatte
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aw, c'mon, man.  It's just an opinion.  Who needs the whole story for that?
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We live in an amazing, amazing world, and it's wasted on the crappiest generation of spoiled idiots. -- Louis CK

We are going to have to stick a pin in a map, set fire to something and carry on until the earth looks flat! -- RandyMac

I could teach you to how file a washer to make it worth a nickel but if you really want to make big bucks just take a penny and drill a hole in it and it becomes a washer and is worth a dime. -- Art Martin, Old-Time Logger
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Trow
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

my wife wont let me get a gun, says the urge to shoot me would be too great.....
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midget
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am really glad to hear you guys say this about guns.  I was raised in a house where gun control was defined as hitting what you shoot at and to repect guns, never EVER treat them like a play thing.  I used to shoot ALOT, and was a very good shot, now I have no time to shoot, but I still feel it very important that we not have our second ammendment rights stripped away so the criminals and the government have all the power over the citizens.  I must say I do not like Bush AT ALL, but I am not about to say we need to over throw the government either.  People just need to open their eyes and understand whats going on, censureship is EVERYWHERE now-a-days and thats not good yet we continue to let it go and pass it off as a part of the cost of being an American.
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khimaira
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The entire world will never agree on any one issue.  Not even the continuance of the human race.  We all have separate experiences which have shaped us into beings which will never be exactly duplicated.  The only thing you or I can do is decide what is personally important and act accordingly.  That said, I WILL own a gun when I believe it is time to do so.  Hopefully, I will maintain the discipline I learned from Snorlax (oops, Madhatte) and attempt to pass it on to others.







... Leedon sucks.
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Glistam
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Khi-chan wrote:
I WILL own a gun when I believe it is time to do so.

The only thing that has ever scared me more than that statement was standing watch and seeing Bubachomp walk out from behind the control panel holding an axe.
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stinkybrokenut
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey all! I'm back and I just got done talking to madhatte and he wanted me to start posting again bc some people wanted to know how I was doing and all.  But I'll save that for another forum.  Anywho, the picture of Hitler at the beginning has a message.  The message is when Hitler came to power, he had the people turn in their firearms.  His intent was to disarm the people so they would be powerless.  Here, people don't worry about someone knocking down their door.  People worry about gradual losses in their firearms rights.  It is much easier to pull off on the public.  Now I don't mind having a background check done when I buy a gun, but I don't want any government body keeping a record of what guns I buy.  It makes it way to easy for them.  In fact I hate the fact that I can't smoke joint legally in this country.  I really hate the government telling me what to do in my house.  Its my business.  Now, some people are gonna say "You have to register your car...why not your guns?"  Driving is not a right, its a priviledge not guaranteed by the constitution.
Education is sorely needed in schools for guns.  Think about it.  If you teach safe sex and about drug abuse why not about what to do if I find a gun or how to use it.  Guns can be dangerous just like drugs and unprotected sex. I would like to see concealed carry laws in every state but education is a must (for the young and the old).  
Anyway its time for me to get off my soapbox.  I wasn't trying to preach.  It was more of a rant.  God, that felt good.  Its been a while. Razz
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Trassin
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a break down of how things went for the Second Amendment last night: Link
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Mishlai
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the solution to urban gun violence is to lift people up out of poverty, to give them education, hope, and options.

Fortunately Obama is moving in this direction, but unfortunately he's also a pretty big fan of gun control. There's always the fillibuster.
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Trassin
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mishlai wrote:
There's always the fillibuster.


Thankfully, also an unknown number of blue dog democrats.
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The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. - Albert Einstein
"Raccoons oscillate at 50Hz in Europe." - FAWBOTS
"I'm not sure I'm up for orgy scrabble parties" - Female Friend
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stinkybrokenut
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed.
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Madhatte
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No matter who's in power, they always have NRA/ILA to whine about eroding personal freedoms. This is a very good thing, in spite of the fact that I don't always agree with their rhetoric. Thank The Founding Fathers for the First Amendment. Without it, there would be no way to defend the rest of the Amendments.
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We live in an amazing, amazing world, and it's wasted on the crappiest generation of spoiled idiots. -- Louis CK

We are going to have to stick a pin in a map, set fire to something and carry on until the earth looks flat! -- RandyMac

I could teach you to how file a washer to make it worth a nickel but if you really want to make big bucks just take a penny and drill a hole in it and it becomes a washer and is worth a dime. -- Art Martin, Old-Time Logger
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Madhatte
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an interesting bit I just found:

Quote:
NFA WEAPONS AND THE 4TH AMENDMENT

As to surrendering your 4th amendment (search and seizure)
rights, this is definitely true when one gets a Federal Firearms
License. The law allows the ATF to inspect your records and
inventory once every 12 months without any cause, and at any point
during the course of a bona fide criminal investigation (18 U.S.C.
sec. 923(g)). They may inspect without warning during business
hours. The only modification of the above pertains to the C&R FFL
(type 03) where ATF must schedule the inspection, (C&R FFL holders
do not have business hours) and they must have the inspection at
their office nearest the C&R FFL holders premises, if the holder so
requests. ATF may look around the licensed premises for other
weapons not on your records. This means they take the position
that if your licensed premises are your home they may search it, as
part of the annual compliance inspection. The constitutionality of
the warrantless "administrative search" of licensees provided for
in the Gun Control Act has been upheld by the US Supreme Court, see
U.S. v. Biswell, 406 U.S. 311 (1972). Biswell was partially
overturned by Congress by 1986 changes to the requirements for a
warrant under the GCA, but the administrative search provisions
remain.

In addition, if one is also a SOT, ATF claims to have the right
to enter onto your business premises, during business hours, to
verify compliance with the NFA. Their regulation to that effect is
found at 27 CFR sec. 179.22. The regulation is apparently based
upon 26 U.S.C. sec. 7606:

7606. Entry of premises for examination of taxable objects.

(a) Entry during day.

The Secretary may enter, in the daytime, any building
or place where any articles or objects subject to tax are
made, produced, or kept, so far as it may be necessary for
the purpose of examining said articles or objects.

(b) Entry at night.

When such premises are open at night, the Secretary may
enter them while so open, in the performance of his official
duties.

(c) Penalties

For penalty for refusal to permit entry or examination, see
section 7342.

26 U.S.C. sec. 7342 provides for the penalty for a refusal to
permit entry under section 7606:

7342. Penalty for refusal to permit entry or examination.

Any owner of any building or place, or person having the
agency or superintendence of the same, who refuses to admit
any officer or employee of the Treasury Department acting
under the authority of section 7606 (relating to entry of
premises for examination of taxable articles) or refuses to
permit him to examine such article or articles, shall, for
every such refusal, forfeit $500.

They claims this right extends to examining your business
records, and firearms. This would only apply to your NFA firearms,
although they could presumably examine other guns to make sure they
were not NFA firearms, and subject to the law. This is not subject
to the controls found in the GCA, noted above, as the legal basis
for the search is not found there. So they could claim a right to
do this sort of search once a month, or once a week. I am not
aware of any current abuse of the authority under this section.
While the regulation made by ATF only applies this authority to
SOT's, the statute itself is not so limited. At least one court
case has suggested this power is available to search an FFL holder
who is not an SOT. (U.S. v. Palmer, 435 F.2d 653 (1st Cir. 1970)).

As to one who is neither a FFL nor SOT, but only owns weapons
regulated under the National Firearms Act, ATF may only compel you
to show an agent upon request the registration paperwork, that is
the Form 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or whatever else might have been used to
register the weapon. See 26 U.S.C. sec. 5841(e). They do not have
any right to compel you to produce the weapon. As always the
Fourth amendment applies, and ATF may not enter your home or other
place of storage of the NFA weapon, nor seize the weapon, without
a warrant, or without falling under an exception the Supreme Court
has created to the operation of the Fourth amendment, or without
your consent.


So: does 2nd or 4th Amendment preempt the other? I'm not sure it's a clear line.
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We live in an amazing, amazing world, and it's wasted on the crappiest generation of spoiled idiots. -- Louis CK

We are going to have to stick a pin in a map, set fire to something and carry on until the earth looks flat! -- RandyMac

I could teach you to how file a washer to make it worth a nickel but if you really want to make big bucks just take a penny and drill a hole in it and it becomes a washer and is worth a dime. -- Art Martin, Old-Time Logger
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Trassin
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit has ruled that the 2nd amendment does apply to the States: Link
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The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. - Albert Einstein
"Raccoons oscillate at 50Hz in Europe." - FAWBOTS
"I'm not sure I'm up for orgy scrabble parties" - Female Friend
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Jon Boy
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sweet!!!!!!!
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