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Financial collapse
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Trassin
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:15 am    Post subject: Financial collapse Reply with quote

I figure with the treasury trying to get 700 Billion to hand over to wall street with no oversight this should probably have its own thread.

Here's what Ron Paul had to say about the plan. Link
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chowda
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:30 am    Post subject: Re: Financial collapse Reply with quote

Trassin wrote:
I figure with the treasury trying to get 700 Billion to hand over to wall street with no oversight this should probably have its own thread.

Here's what Ron Paul had to say about the plan. Link

Every time Ron Paul speaks, we NEED to know about it. It's not like he says the same things over and over.

People more experienced than Ron Paul on these issues:

Larry Kudlow
Steve Forbes
Clay Aiken

Dr. Paul was the guy to go to 6-12 months ago because he saw it coming. Now that it's here, he has no solution.
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Trassin
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:26 am    Post subject: Re: Financial collapse Reply with quote

chowda wrote:

Every time Ron Paul speaks, we NEED to know about it. It's not like he says the same things over and over.

If I posted every time he spoke it would be 5 or 6 links a week.

Quote:
People more experienced than Ron Paul on these issues:

Right, because its not like he has a degree in economics or anything. Why would we possibly want to consider the opinion of someone smart enough to get a medical doctorate, have a second degree in economics, consistently beat neo-cons who have the full backing of the republican party, and with no major ties to wallstreet. It would be much better to listen to people who will directly benefit from the handout.


Kudlow wrote:
The bells and whistles that would be attached to Paulson’s plan by our Democratic friends are anti-capitalist and anti-opportunity.
Oh, because a 700 billion dollar government handout isn't inherently anti-capitalist?

Kudlow has strong ties to major wallstreet entities and the republican party. It really is quite surprising that he would back a giant handout to his former drinking buddies. He also supports President Bush's economic plan, which is clearly working out really well, and the war in Iraq because "a lack of decisive follow-through in the global war on terrorism is the single biggest problem facing the stock market and the nation today."

So the guy that thinks President Bush is an economic and national strategy genius thinks the bailout is a good idea... well shit, where do I sign up.


Steve Forbes definitely has some interesting ideas and is actually worth listening to.
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chowda
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:52 am    Post subject: Re: Financial collapse Reply with quote

Trassin wrote:

Right, because its not like he has a degree in economics or anything.

He does. However, he never, ever talks about the consequences of his policies. Also, he was unfamiliar with the term "mark to market" on Monday night. Yeah, I'm going to him during a banking crisis.

Kudlow wrote:
The bells and whistles that would be attached to Paulson’s plan by our Democratic friends are anti-capitalist and anti-opportunity.
Oh, because a 700 billion dollar government handout isn't inherently anti-capitalist?[/quote]
Do you even know where they get that figure? If you did, you wouldn't be calling it a "handout".
Kudlow wrote:
Kudlow has strong ties to major wallstreet entities and the republican party. It really is quite surprising that he would back a giant handout to his former drinking buddies. He also supports President Bush's economic plan, which is clearly working out really well, and the war in Iraq because "a lack of decisive follow-through in the global war on terrorism is the single biggest problem facing the stock market and the nation today."

So the guy that thinks President Bush is an economic and national strategy genius thinks the bailout is a good idea... well shit, where do I sign up.

If you watch his show (and clearly you don't given the bull crap demagoguery ), you would know that he chastised the spending and energy policies of the caving GOP since Bush's first term. He has also been against the Fed keeping interest rates so low for at least three years, a major contributor to this crisis. If you want to talk about taxation, revenues are just fine and the lower rates kept a lot of business and investment in the US. There's a huge private investment surplus that counteracts the trade deficit which no one talks about. That was going away during 2001. The 2003 long term capital gains rate deduction helped it come back in a big way.

As for the knee-jerk Bush derangement tangent, is it so hard to acknowledge the wonders the surge has done? Winning seemed impossible two years ago. Now, losing seems just as hard. The man who everyone thought was fatally stubborn woke up and put the number of troops there to get the job done.
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Trassin
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Do you even know where they get that figure? If you did, you wouldn't be calling it a "handout".
True, I should have said bailout. To my understanding it is based on how much they expect it will cost to purchase the securities, which the 3% of failing mortgages are tied up in, at their current, estimated value. The treasury will then hold a reverse auction at a later date to put them back into the market. None of which changes the fact that the government bailing out corporations and trading on the securities market is anti-capitalist.


Quote:
Winning seemed impossible two years ago. Now, losing seems just as hard. The man who everyone thought was fatally stubborn woke up and put the number of troops there to get the job done.
I have no problem acknowledging the surge accomplished the goal of reducing violence. To bad it took President Bush 3 years and who knows how many hundreds of thousands of lives to have the necessary number of troops. It will also be interesting to see if the Iraq military and government were able to use the created "space" to accomplish the improvements that are necessary to sustain the peace when we cut back troops levels in the next few years.

Quote:
As for the knee-jerk Bush derangement tangent...

Nothing "knee-jerk" about it. I've had 7+ years of my opinion of President Bush being confirmed over and over again.
Our world reputation sucks, economy in shambles, a war that was both unnecessary and poorly planned, our President acting like a dumb red neck the world over, no environmental leadership, no clean technology leadership, a failure to address illegal immigration, lower levels of highly educated legal immigrants, and many other fine improvements from the Bush years.

But it's okay though because he used the word terrorism 36 times when he talked to the U.N. yesterday, at a conference which was suppose to be addressing world economic and environmental concerns.

I also don't think that just the President is to blame. Between his vice president, a worthless congress, a press core more interested in maintaining access then asking difficult questions, an American public that votes for who has the better hair, and a lengthy list of failed advisers/cabinet members it is no wonder his presidency has been a near complete failure.
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Glistam
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The government should not be stepping in here. The economy is suppossed to have highs and lows. If we don't let the economy go through it's low period then we're changing the fundamentals of our economy.

This bailout is also essentially rewarding the people who made the bad decisions that got us here and preventing the consequences of their actions from being felt.
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Trassin
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way, Bernanke is at another hearing with congress right now. You can watch it live through CNBC.com
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chowda
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glistam wrote:
The government should not be stepping in here. The economy is suppossed to have highs and lows. If we don't let the economy go through it's low period then we're changing the fundamentals of our economy.

This bailout is also essentially rewarding the people who made the bad decisions that got us here and preventing the consequences of their actions from being felt.

The government, along with loose monetary policy, did everything it could to extend the inflationary uptic in the business cycle. While in it, the dumb policy of "economic justice" enforced in the mortgage industry really came back to bite the entire country in the ass.

The consequences could be dire if no bailout happens. If the Dems get their version of the bailout passed, there will be absolutely, positively no lessons learned by the American consumers that were sold the payment, not the house over the last ten years.

Along the same lines, the solidity of business contracts takes a hit if a judge can rewrite a loan at the expense of the lender. Russia had less foreign investment that Lithuania in the 90's because contracts were worthless. Would that be an unintentional consequence? Probably.

At times like this, I'm happy I have no debt. A credit score barely in the 700's, but no debt. Embarassed
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chowda
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trassin wrote:
By the way, Bernanke is at another hearing with congress right now. You can watch it live through CNBC.com

His major strength is supposed to be to be his expertise on the Great Depression.

WHY THE HECK DIDN'T HE SEE THIS COMING? Evil or Very Mad
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Trassin
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chowda wrote:
WHY THE HECK DIDN'T HE SEE THIS COMING? Evil or Very Mad


That's something I would love to know too.


I personally think the U.S. is due for some hard economic times and that it is going to happen. My only hope is that it won't be to hard and that on the back side there will be a large growth in American innovation.
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chowda
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trassin wrote:
chowda wrote:
WHY THE HECK DIDN'T HE SEE THIS COMING? Evil or Very Mad

I personally think the U.S. is due for some hard economic times and that it is going to happen. My only hope is that it won't be to hard and that on the back side there will be a large growth in American innovation.

You work for CAT, right? Great American manufacturer that'll do fine. One of the few stocks I hadn't sold off already and I like what I see in their statements.

Allow me to put on my tin foil hat for a second. Why is this happening right now? If there was ill-intent by major players, the signs are definitely there:

* The dollar made a major move over the summer for no apparent reason. Unless it was being artificially held in a weakened state, a minor world economic downturn that we were also experiencing shouldn't have taken the pound from $1.97 to $1.73 and the euro from $1.65 to $1.40 while we were printing stimulus checks.

* Gold tanked. That provided a great opportunity for large firms to load up on it before a forced crisis could come to light.

* The stronger dollar made it tougher for foreign sovereign funds to stay in US based assets. China especially pulled out, which was a major domino to fall in all this.

* It also made it impossible for foreign firms to step in and help keep AIG and Lehman afloat.

* Now, the dollar is going back to where is was before. Huge, nameless firms are making a killing off the volatility they created.


I'll take my tin foil hat off, but am I onto something here?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You work for CAT, right? Great American manufacturer that'll do fine. One of the few stocks I hadn't sold off already and I like what I see in their statements.


Yes, I actually work in their electronics research division.


As for your tin foil hat theory. Could be possible but I doubt that we'll ever know one way or the other.
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Trassin
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

President Bush is speaking tonight at 8:00 CST.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The government should not be stepping in here. The economy is suppossed to have highs and lows.

I used to agree with this, but the more research I did, the more convinced I became that not stepping in was the exact opposite of the right thing to do. We're talking about companies so large they affect global entities and the global market, and that are pretty much irreplaceable if they fail. Here's something to think about. Between 40 and 60% of Fannie and Freddie are owned by Chinese interests. They also own a vast amount of U.S. Treasury bonds. If those companies tank, the Chinese will lose a LOT of money. What would they do next? Sell off all their bonds to counteract that loss(and punish us). Between the economic decline from the failure of America's two largest business institutions and our unpayable debt to China for those bonds, we would likely be in another Great Depression.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trassin wrote:
President Bush is speaking tonight at 8:00 CST.

McCain is heading to DC to solve the congressional impass. He wants to postpone the debate on friday. Obama's spending the next three days cramming on international matters to get ready so he might not want to postpone.

Da da dadadada da-da-da-da
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just face it, we're financially fucked. What pisses me off is that $700 billion sent to a bunch of fuckwads that didnt know how to handle thier money in the firstplace, is so fucking easy to come by all of a sudden. Where was this $700 billion when US soliders in Iraq were not properly supplied with body armor. Where was it when we were told we didnt have enuff money to increase our oil refining capacity. Where was it when little Suzie's parents couldn't afford a heart transplant. And with all that cash just lying the fuck around why aren't we using it to reduce our dependence on foreign oil?

Fuck you GW Bush
Fuck you US Government, you aren't what you used to be.
and a big Fuck You to every congressman this year that voted himself a payraise.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't forget - Clinton began the deregulation craze. So fuck him too.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrushFearSynth wrote:
Don't forget - Clinton began the deregulation craze. So fuck him too.

Actually, Carter & Co. got the ball rolling. As part of the reaching out to blacks because he got a historic low percentage of their vote in 2000, Bush let these "social justice" lending practices continue. So screw Jesse Jackson et al.

And don't forget how compensation packages at Fannie were based on how large their assets were, not how much profit they made. Now that is just plain dumb.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrushFearSynth wrote:
Quote:
The government should not be stepping in here. The economy is suppossed to have highs and lows.

I used to agree with this, but the more research I did, the more convinced I became that not stepping in was the exact opposite of the right thing to do. We're talking about companies so large they affect global entities and the global market, and that are pretty much irreplaceable if they fail.

Why do you think all of these banks want to buy up bad paper? The answer is simple: They all want to become "too big to fail".

As an aside, I thought Bush did a fine job explaining the situation last night. Does it matter? Nah.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It will be interesting to see how much of a dip the markets take today.

Between the large down turn in durable goods (cars, factory equipment, house hold appliances) orders and the talk of the bailout possibly being reduced to 150 billion to start out it will be interesting to see what happens.

Oh, also, GE released some bad news to add to the mix.

edit: Guess I was wrong.
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