The Blue Elephant Brigade Forum Index The Blue Elephant Brigade
Games, Anime, Movies, Life
 
    FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Existential Quandry
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Blue Elephant Brigade Forum Index -> General Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Mongolio
Brigadier Elite
Brigadier Elite


Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 4976

PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:11 pm    Post subject: Existential Quandry Reply with quote

A coworker and I had an interesting discussion today, prompted by me.

Let's say that science has advanced far enough to allow teleportation. So, this technology takes a snapshot of every subatomic particle in your entire body, it's state, it's energy level, it's velocity, etc and sends that to the receiving end machine. I would assume that it would be easier for it to just record all that data and recreate another person on the other end using a tank of components and such.

I would assume that your consciousness in a Copy - Paste type machine would not be receiving inputs from all four eyes, ears, etc, that would mean that the copy is exactly the same as you, but it's not your consciousness. Anyone follow?

Now imagine the machine is a Cut - Paste type of machine (ala Star Trek transporter). Since your consciousness doesn't (I assume) exist in both bodies, does that mean your you would die in this case? Now, since the copy of you is you in every detail, your personality would be the same, so your friends and family wouldn't be able to tell the difference. It still wouldn't be the you that is you. It would be the you that isn't you. It would have it's own consciousness that is exactly like you, but not you.

As many of you know, I'm an atheist to the core, so this is not at all a question of the thing irrationals call the soul. This is purely your you.

Now, who wants to be the first to test the teleporter device?
_________________
Core meltdown (commonly known as a meltdown) is an accident scenario in nuclear reactors, and is one of the possible modes of failure for light water reactors, during which the reactor pile turns into a pile of reactor.
---RationalWiki

If Jesus had existed, his DNA would have been 99% similar to that of a chimpanzee. Or you. You're 99% Jesus.
-- RationalWiki
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Buddy Lee
Brigadier Trainee
Brigadier Trainee


Joined: 22 Oct 2005
Posts: 990

PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Existential Quandry Reply with quote

Mongolio wrote:
Now, who wants to be the first to test the teleporter device?


Santorum dropped out of the Presidential race today. He probably has nothing better to do.
_________________
"What cheers me up? Um... I suppose mainly gloating over the misfortunes of other people. I guess that has to be it. Yeah, mainly crowing over the miseries of others. It doesn't always work, but it never completely fails. And then there's irony. There's irony, which is the gin in the campari, the cream in the coffee. Um... Sex can have diminishing returns, but it's amazing. Uh, no that's pretty much it, then it's a clear run to the grave." -Christopher Hitchens

Course title every university should offer: "How to tell when someone else is full of shit" -Neil deGrasse Tyson in a Q&A session on reddit
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mishlai
Brigadier Survivor
Brigadier Survivor


Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 6226
Location: Dry Land

PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my view your consciousness is produced by your brain, and is composed of all of your memories, mental and hormonal state, brain structure & pathways, etc.

If all of your molecules were replaced, slowly over time, so that eventually every molecule was different and none of the originals remained, we would still consider you to be you. Indeed, something like this happens across our lives. What is preserved is a particular pattern. That pattern changes over time, but it has continuity that we recognize to be a changing you.

So, in my view, it is your pattern that is your true essence. In a copy-paste scenario, at the moment of paste there are two of you. It is our tendency to treat the physical original as genuinely you and the newly produced version to be an alternate you, but they're both you. One just as much as the other. There is literally no difference between them. We never experience anything like that, but without a concept like souls there's no reason why it isn't possible.

From that point on they begin to have different experiences and diverge as two different people who both have a shared personal past. If you set an experiment up cleverly enough - let's say a round room with 2 teleport pads, and this room is spinning so that physical orientation to the outside world doesn't provide any information, and we program the computer to wipe after the paste so that there is no record of which pad had the original...

Then you both walk out of the chamber with full memory of coming in to perform this experiment, and are both faced with an exact copy. Neither has any idea which was the physical original, and frankly it isn't relevant. It would only be relevant if one of you had an opinion on which was which, because your brain would assign importance to that fact. So... basically your consciousness would cease to be a unique entity for a short time (until experience changed them both.) It would also be extremely difficult for you to intentionally set up conditions where one of you would know which was which and the other would not, because both of you know what the system is to the same detail. How do you trick yourself?

For the cut-paste... yes, one of you would die, though assuming near-instant desconstruction and construction, you would not experience the death. The duration of this process is an interesting point to explore, particularly on the reconstruction side. That said, the reconstruction would still be your consciousness + the experience of reconstruction. You would die and not die, and not be Schrodinger's Cat.

Tech like this would be mind blowing. Think cloning. Think perfect surgery. Think anti-aging. Think reversal of genetic defects and deletion of viruses. Think limb restoration. Think of body modification. Think of experiments in biological construction (optical nerve passes in front of the retina? Fixed! The correction would not be hereditary though.) Preservation & recreation of people. (Imagine a system where murder victims could be re-spawned for a short time to give the police an interview, or to testify about their last wishes or on some other matter, or to actually be at their own funeral.)

Our world would be unrecognizable from the addition of this one thing.
_________________
You are the result of 4 billion years of evolutionary success.

Fucking act like it.

"The stars died so that you could be here today" - Lawrence Krauss

"The universe is huge and old, and rare things happen all the time." - Lawrence Krauss
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Buddy Lee
Brigadier Trainee
Brigadier Trainee


Joined: 22 Oct 2005
Posts: 990

PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Were you guys watching videos of Dr. Michio Kaku?

The first video touches on the ethical questions of a cut and paste teleportation. The second video discusses the different types of civilizations that would have the technological capabilities to do what Mishlai mentions at the end of his post. Very interesting stuff.
_________________
"What cheers me up? Um... I suppose mainly gloating over the misfortunes of other people. I guess that has to be it. Yeah, mainly crowing over the miseries of others. It doesn't always work, but it never completely fails. And then there's irony. There's irony, which is the gin in the campari, the cream in the coffee. Um... Sex can have diminishing returns, but it's amazing. Uh, no that's pretty much it, then it's a clear run to the grave." -Christopher Hitchens

Course title every university should offer: "How to tell when someone else is full of shit" -Neil deGrasse Tyson in a Q&A session on reddit
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mongolio
Brigadier Elite
Brigadier Elite


Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 4976

PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't, actually, but I will after work.

If you accept that your consciousness doesn't process inputs from both bodies, then the Cut - Paste machine will kill that consciousness that is you. Granted, the consciousness that is created is exactly the same as yours in every detail, but it is just that: a copy.

I do agree that even in the case of a Copy - Paste machine, both would instantly begin to diverge as each has its own unique experiences.
_________________
Core meltdown (commonly known as a meltdown) is an accident scenario in nuclear reactors, and is one of the possible modes of failure for light water reactors, during which the reactor pile turns into a pile of reactor.
---RationalWiki

If Jesus had existed, his DNA would have been 99% similar to that of a chimpanzee. Or you. You're 99% Jesus.
-- RationalWiki
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mishlai
Brigadier Survivor
Brigadier Survivor


Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 6226
Location: Dry Land

PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buddy Lee wrote:
Were you guys watching videos of Dr. Michio Kaku?

The first video touches on the ethical questions of a cut and paste teleportation. The second video discusses the different types of civilizations that would have the technological capabilities to do what Mishlai mentions at the end of his post. Very interesting stuff.


I hadn't seen him before. I need to watch more of his stuff before forming an opinion. I can't tell if he's awesome or full of fluff.
_________________
You are the result of 4 billion years of evolutionary success.

Fucking act like it.

"The stars died so that you could be here today" - Lawrence Krauss

"The universe is huge and old, and rare things happen all the time." - Lawrence Krauss
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mishlai
Brigadier Survivor
Brigadier Survivor


Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 6226
Location: Dry Land

PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This, for example, does not impress me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMNZQVyabiM&feature=relmfu

Randomness is not free will, and his billionth of a second point is trivial.
_________________
You are the result of 4 billion years of evolutionary success.

Fucking act like it.

"The stars died so that you could be here today" - Lawrence Krauss

"The universe is huge and old, and rare things happen all the time." - Lawrence Krauss
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CrushFearSynth
Brigadier Survivor
Brigadier Survivor


Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 9017
Location: Sterling, VA

PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If both of those methods include simply transferring information to another machine which then recreates it with different\"unoriginal" material, what would you call the method that is capturing your atomic structure, deconstructing it, sending those specific atoms to the other machine, then reconstructing them on the other side?
_________________
"The cheese stands alone." - Madhatte
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mongolio
Brigadier Elite
Brigadier Elite


Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 4976

PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Copy - Paste in the former instance, Cut - Paste in the latter instance.
_________________
Core meltdown (commonly known as a meltdown) is an accident scenario in nuclear reactors, and is one of the possible modes of failure for light water reactors, during which the reactor pile turns into a pile of reactor.
---RationalWiki

If Jesus had existed, his DNA would have been 99% similar to that of a chimpanzee. Or you. You're 99% Jesus.
-- RationalWiki
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mishlai
Brigadier Survivor
Brigadier Survivor


Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 6226
Location: Dry Land

PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would still call that a cut-paste Crush. Keeping the same atoms isn't relevant in my view.
_________________
You are the result of 4 billion years of evolutionary success.

Fucking act like it.

"The stars died so that you could be here today" - Lawrence Krauss

"The universe is huge and old, and rare things happen all the time." - Lawrence Krauss
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mongolio
Brigadier Elite
Brigadier Elite


Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 4976

PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Mish. You die when you teleport.
_________________
Core meltdown (commonly known as a meltdown) is an accident scenario in nuclear reactors, and is one of the possible modes of failure for light water reactors, during which the reactor pile turns into a pile of reactor.
---RationalWiki

If Jesus had existed, his DNA would have been 99% similar to that of a chimpanzee. Or you. You're 99% Jesus.
-- RationalWiki
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CrushFearSynth
Brigadier Survivor
Brigadier Survivor


Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 9017
Location: Sterling, VA

PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not see anything convincing that you would die in a cut-paste scenario keeping the original atoms. It seems relevant to me.
_________________
"The cheese stands alone." - Madhatte
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mishlai
Brigadier Survivor
Brigadier Survivor


Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 6226
Location: Dry Land

PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You don't think you would die when you were atom-by-atom disintegrated?

That stream of atoms heading to the new location is no more "you" than any other collection of atoms with the same composition.
_________________
You are the result of 4 billion years of evolutionary success.

Fucking act like it.

"The stars died so that you could be here today" - Lawrence Krauss

"The universe is huge and old, and rare things happen all the time." - Lawrence Krauss
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mongolio
Brigadier Elite
Brigadier Elite


Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 4976

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And the you that's you wouldn't receive input from all 4 eyes, 2 noses, 4 ears, 2 tongues, etc. Since the only appreciable difference between the two machines is that one has a material tank and the other doesn't, when you teleport, your you dies in the Cut - Paste machine.
_________________
Core meltdown (commonly known as a meltdown) is an accident scenario in nuclear reactors, and is one of the possible modes of failure for light water reactors, during which the reactor pile turns into a pile of reactor.
---RationalWiki

If Jesus had existed, his DNA would have been 99% similar to that of a chimpanzee. Or you. You're 99% Jesus.
-- RationalWiki
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CrushFearSynth
Brigadier Survivor
Brigadier Survivor


Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 9017
Location: Sterling, VA

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You don't think you would die when you were atom-by-atom disintegrated?

That stream of atoms heading to the new location is no more "you" than any other collection of atoms with the same composition.

You don't think that having those atoms reconstructed precisely is basically resurrection? It very well could be that those atoms are all we are, and consciousness is a product of a staggering amount of cause and effect right down to the subatomic level.

Quote:
And the you that's you wouldn't receive input from all 4 eyes, 2 noses, 4 ears, 2 tongues, etc. Since the only appreciable difference between the two machines is that one has a material tank and the other doesn't, when you teleport, your you dies in the Cut - Paste machine.

There wouldn't be 4 eyes, etc., if all of the original atoms would be sent to the other location and reconstructed. It is a pretty big assumption to say that upon reconstruction of those same atoms at the other end, the consciousness would be separate and unoriginal. Regardless, it's a situation where either hypothesis is valid since neither position has any realistic support. Besides, I'm going with Warp teleportation. Fuck Gellar Fields.
_________________
"The cheese stands alone." - Madhatte
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mishlai
Brigadier Survivor
Brigadier Survivor


Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 6226
Location: Dry Land

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrushFearSynth wrote:

You don't think that having those atoms reconstructed precisely is basically resurrection?


No more or less so than in the cut-paste information transfer version. You die, and you are resurrected with no knowledge of that death. The new you is you, and it is also "just a copy".

I don't think that using particular carbon atoms, and particular nitrogen atoms, and so on, in the reconstruction makes any difference to this. We can substitute out any of your atoms for an identical one and you will continue to be Crush. I'm assuming here that all spins, and other physical properties of those atoms are exactly matched. In that sense (and maybe you disagree on atomic significance) the paste in a cut-paste is also a resurrection.

We could accomplish the same thing as a cut-paste with a copy paste and then shoot the original in the head. In that case "resurrection" would precede death, but the difference would not be discernible to the teleported you. Is the teleported version you? Sure, absolutely. But tell that to the guy who got shot in the head.
_________________
You are the result of 4 billion years of evolutionary success.

Fucking act like it.

"The stars died so that you could be here today" - Lawrence Krauss

"The universe is huge and old, and rare things happen all the time." - Lawrence Krauss
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CrushFearSynth
Brigadier Survivor
Brigadier Survivor


Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 9017
Location: Sterling, VA

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just don't see that it wouldn't actually be the real you. I don't see why the original consciousness would cease, and the reconstructed form on the other side would be just a copy with no knowledge that they were not the original. I understand the idea, but I don't see how that idea would be the real case because I don't see any support for it(at least that I'm able to understand, quantum physics is a lot of weirdo). There are too many fundamentals that really aren't fundamental, because this area entails a fair bit of throwing darts at particle board. It's not that I really disagree as such, I just don't think that our current level of understanding of consciousness itself is capable of lending any credence to the idea.
_________________
"The cheese stands alone." - Madhatte
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Madhatte
Brigadier Survivor
Brigadier Survivor


Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 7949
Location: Olympia, WA

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you can think of "You" as a Quantum Phenomenon, then both "Yous" are the same and merely occupy different spaces.
_________________
We live in an amazing, amazing world, and it's wasted on the crappiest generation of spoiled idiots. -- Louis CK

We are going to have to stick a pin in a map, set fire to something and carry on until the earth looks flat! -- RandyMac

I could teach you to how file a washer to make it worth a nickel but if you really want to make big bucks just take a penny and drill a hole in it and it becomes a washer and is worth a dime. -- Art Martin, Old-Time Logger
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
CrushFearSynth
Brigadier Survivor
Brigadier Survivor


Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 9017
Location: Sterling, VA

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But would it be gay?
_________________
"The cheese stands alone." - Madhatte
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mojobacca
Brigadier Commando
Brigadier Commando


Joined: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 2789

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just say mine the spice and fold some space.
_________________
Come join the fun! League of Legends is a MMOAG that is both free to get, but free to play!

Quote:
DEATHFORCE: There are certainly crazy things you can do with this game, you can generate a world that is 3 times the size of earth before it starts having errors, although I dont know how long it would take to generate a world that large anyways lol

TRASSIN: I'm guessing about 21 days? Assuming you take a break every 7th day or so.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Blue Elephant Brigade Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT + 13 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group