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Existential Quandry
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Mongolio
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crush, do you stipulate that in the Copy - Paste machine, you wouldn't see out of both pairs of eyes at once? If you say you don't, the only difference between the Cut - Paste and Copy - Paste is where the atoms come from. In either case, the you that's you only exists on the original.
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Core meltdown (commonly known as a meltdown) is an accident scenario in nuclear reactors, and is one of the possible modes of failure for light water reactors, during which the reactor pile turns into a pile of reactor.
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If Jesus had existed, his DNA would have been 99% similar to that of a chimpanzee. Or you. You're 99% Jesus.
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Mishlai
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I gathered he was coming from the position that using the same atoms is significant in some way that we not yet understand. Unlikely in my view, but I'm not going to argue about it.
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CrushFearSynth
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you take a cardboard box and slice it up, transport it somewhere else and tape it back together, it is the original box. It stands to reason that if you could disassemble matter at the atomic level, transport it somewhere else and reassemble it, it would be still be the original. No copying or cutting, just deconstruction and reconstruction. As for what would happen to consciousness, we really have no information with which to make any kind of a guess, so we will just have to make the arbitrary assumption that either it remains bound to the matter in which it originates, or it doesn't. In my version, it would, but that is really a secondary issue.
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Mongolio
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The secondary issue was the primary purpose of the thought experiment. Yes, without the question of the actual consciousness, it doesn't matter what kind of machine you use. It doesn't even matter if it's not 100% perfect.

The real point of my original post was the aforementioned secondary issue.
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Core meltdown (commonly known as a meltdown) is an accident scenario in nuclear reactors, and is one of the possible modes of failure for light water reactors, during which the reactor pile turns into a pile of reactor.
---RationalWiki

If Jesus had existed, his DNA would have been 99% similar to that of a chimpanzee. Or you. You're 99% Jesus.
-- RationalWiki
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CrushFearSynth
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But this secondary, heretofore to be called the primary, issue only allows for arbirtrary assumption. I can't see how we can discuss it with any kind of support for either of our ideas on it. Not that that really matters, still an interesting topic.

I'm all for "still alive" simply because it seems more pleasant.
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Mishlai
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I follow what you're saying, but I don't know of any reasons to suppose that any atom two atoms of carbon with matched properties (in terms of quark arrangement, particle spins, electron energy levels & location, and so on) would not be totally indistinguishable from each other, or any way in which a personality would become wrapped up into a particular atom.

That just doesn't sound plausible to me. All the complexity that we see in anything seems to arise from the arrangement of these building blocks into a pattern. This is why I think that the pattern itself is you, that this is what makes up your consciousness.

It's an interesting question, how that arises. I can't imagine a way for matter to become self-aware, no matter how clever the arrangement, but here we are. It also has implications into AI and Artificial Life. How would we distinguish true consciousness from clever programming, and are the two actually different? If something is conscious but does not feel pain or pleasure, does it have rights? What if we reverse those?

What if, as some have suggested, we are automatons, too? Which automatons are clever enough to deserve rights then? This stuff makes my head explode, and creeps me out a little too.
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You are the result of 4 billion years of evolutionary success.

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"The stars died so that you could be here today" - Lawrence Krauss

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CrushFearSynth
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I seem to remember studies done regarding human interaction which support the idea we are just complex biological machines, that our psyches operate in the same way as a computer system, but with a greater range of error-induced behavioral anomalies.
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Mongolio
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrushFearSynth wrote:
I'm all for "still alive" simply because it seems more pleasant.


That sounds like the perfect justification to start a religion...
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Core meltdown (commonly known as a meltdown) is an accident scenario in nuclear reactors, and is one of the possible modes of failure for light water reactors, during which the reactor pile turns into a pile of reactor.
---RationalWiki

If Jesus had existed, his DNA would have been 99% similar to that of a chimpanzee. Or you. You're 99% Jesus.
-- RationalWiki
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Mishlai
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn. Do you want some ice for that burn, or should I just lay on hands? Razz
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You are the result of 4 billion years of evolutionary success.

Fucking act like it.

"The stars died so that you could be here today" - Lawrence Krauss

"The universe is huge and old, and rare things happen all the time." - Lawrence Krauss
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CrushFearSynth
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What burn, exactly? All I see is a computational error.
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Mongolio
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You need to fix the error in your programming, then.
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Core meltdown (commonly known as a meltdown) is an accident scenario in nuclear reactors, and is one of the possible modes of failure for light water reactors, during which the reactor pile turns into a pile of reactor.
---RationalWiki

If Jesus had existed, his DNA would have been 99% similar to that of a chimpanzee. Or you. You're 99% Jesus.
-- RationalWiki
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Mishlai
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps the temperature simply wasn't high enough to burn a robot.
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You are the result of 4 billion years of evolutionary success.

Fucking act like it.

"The stars died so that you could be here today" - Lawrence Krauss

"The universe is huge and old, and rare things happen all the time." - Lawrence Krauss
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CrushFearSynth
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fire doesn't burn steel! Rosie O'Donnell says so!
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